Rita Liu:
Good morning, this is Rita Liu and it’s Raise Your Game. I’m here with William Ury. He’s the co-founder of Harvard’s program on negotiation, where he directs the Project on Preventing War. One of the world’s leading negotiation specialists. His past clients include dozens of Fortune 500 companies, as well as the White House and the Pentagon.
Ury received his BA from Yale and a PhD in Anthropology from Harvard. And his books, Getting to Yes and Getting Past No, have sold more than 5 million copies worldwide. We’re here to talk about another one of his books, Getting to Yes With Yourself. Good to be speaking to you, William. It’s a great pleasure, Rita.
And I think getting to yes with yourself is that battle with ourselves, right? And the question would be, why are we our own worst enemy?
William Ury:
Well, just to tell you, I mean, I had the privilege of writing Getting to Yes with Roger Fisher more than 30 years ago. And probably the most common question I got after that, writing that book, was, yes, but how do you get to yes with this difficult person or that difficult person? What if they don’t want to get to yes?
So I became kind of a specialist in dealing with difficult people, whether it’s in labor fights or ethnic wars or boardroom battles or family feuds. But over the years, it slowly dawned on me, actually, that our biggest opponent actually is not the person on the other side of the table, however difficult they can sometimes be. It’s ourselves. It’s in our own very understandable, very human tendency to react. It’s to act without thinking, to act in ways that go exactly contrary to our own interests.
And I see that happen again and again. We are our own worst enemies, and we can also become our own best allies if we can learn to get to yes with ourselves.
Rita Liu:
Okay. Your book outlines six steps on how to get our inner self to say yes. And the first thing was to put yourself in your shoes.
Why do we need to do that, and how do we do that? Because we always hear about putting ourselves in other people’s shoes.
William Ury:
Well, yeah, it’s true. You know, when I teach negotiation, I usually teach people, well, if you want to put yourself in the other person’s shoes, you need to understand their minds if you want to influence them. But what I found is that it’s actually hard for us to do that, particularly in difficult situations and conflicts.
It’s very hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of the other. And the reason is is that we haven’t put ourselves in our own shoes first. I mean, it sounds funny, but how many of us can honestly say that we listen to ourselves in the empathetic and understanding way that a good friend might? Instead, you know, we have this kind of voice, this inner critic that’s always criticizing us and telling us what we’re doing wrong. But in fact, if we can learn to listen to ourselves, I’ve found, then it makes it much easier for us to listen to others.
Rita Liu:
So how do you go about doing that? You know, when do you know it’s time to be critical and the time to say, it’s OK, Frida?
William Ury:
Well, to me, the key, the foundational move here is the ability. I like to use this metaphor of going to the balcony. In other words, imagine that you’re negotiating, you’re dealing with that other person, whoever it is.
It could be a family member, it could be a colleague at work, at work, wherever you’re dealing with that person, you’re on the stage. It’s almost like you’re actors on a stage. Part of your mind goes to a mental or emotional balcony overlooking that stage. It’s a place of clarity, a place of perspective, a place of calm, a place of self-control where you can keep your eyes on the prize. What is truly important to you?
If we can do that, if we can go to the balcony, then I think we have a chance to get to yes with ourselves. We’re able to put ourselves in our own shoes. We’re able to make all of these moves. That’s the key is the ability to go to the balcony.
Rita Liu:
Right.
You talk about developing your best alternative to negotiated agreement, BATNA. What is this inner BATNA that we need to develop?
William Ury:
Well, BATNA is a term that Roger Fisher and I coined many years ago to describe what’s your best course of action if for some reason you’re not able to reach agreement with the other side. If you’re not able to reach agreement, if you’re applying for a job, you’re not able to get agreement with one employer, maybe you can find a job somewhere else. What’s the alternative?
You can’t deal with one customer. Maybe there’s another. It turns out that the ability to know our BATNA, develop our BATNA is a key source of power and confidence that helps us greatly in a negotiation because then we’re not so dependent on the other side for that agreement. And similarly, I’ve found that it’s actually, even though it makes perfect sense, it’s hard for people to do. We don’t often do that.
And I’ve found that the reason is, again, is ourselves, is we have to develop our own inner BATNA, which is our own inner ability to tell ourselves, to reassure ourselves, to commit to ourselves that we will take care of our own needs regardless of what the other side does. Because if we can do that, if we can give ourselves that confidence, then we’re going to negotiate and we’re not going to be so dependent on the other. We’re going to negotiate with more confidence and with more effectiveness than if we’re totally dependent. We need that deal. We need that customer.
We need that person to meet those needs. So to me, the inner BATNA turns out to be key. For example, I was working with a billionaire who was involved in a very difficult conflict with his former business partner, and they were suing each other to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. And I asked him, well, what do you really want? What do you really want here?
And finally, after a while, he put himself in his own shoes, and he said, well, what I most want is freedom, the freedom to spend time with my family, which I value, and freedom to pursue other business deals. And then I said to him, but who can give you that freedom? Is it only your arch opponent who can free you? Are you his hostage? Or to some extent, can you free yourself?
And he realized, no, that was his inner BATNA. He could free himself, so he chose to spend time with it even before negotiating the dispute. He chose to pursue other business deals. He went on with his life, and that actually paradoxically made it easier for us to settle the dispute.
Rita Liu:
And the third step is to reframe your picture.
Is this sort of looking at it from another perspective?
William Ury:
That’s exactly it. That’s one of the greatest powers that we have as a negotiator, or as human beings, really, is the ability to see things in a different perspective. Because we could see things as, look, the other side is our adversary, our enemy. Life is against us.
And or, you know, that’s a choice. That’s a limiting belief, because we can choose to take that same situation and say, you know, that adversary is maybe a potential partner. Life may actually be on our side. And if we can learn to examine our own underlying mindset, then we can have the greatest power of all, which is the power to change the game, to change the game from a win-lose contest in which both sides end up losing, usually, to a situation where both sides can benefit. And, in fact, the whole can benefit.
Rita Liu:
All right. I’m here speaking to William Ury, talking about his book, Getting to Yes With Yourself. We’ll talk about the other steps right after this in Razor Game, BFM 89.9.
This is Raise Your Game. I’m Rita Liu. I’m speaking to William Ury, talking about his book, Getting to Yes With Yourself. A little bit about William. He’s written many other books, Getting to Yes and Getting Past No.
They’ve sold more than 5 million copies worldwide. And we were discussing six steps on how to get to our inner self to say yes. And, you know, some steps we outlined a little earlier on. The other one, the fourth one, is to stay in the zone. What do you mean by staying in the zone?
William Ury:
Well, that’s a term that comes from sports. What’s your state of peak performance? When are you at your best? When do you perform at your best? When do you feel that sense of fulfillment and contentment?
And the same is true to me in the difficult negotiations that we all face every single day. How do we stay in the zone, which to me is like I mentioned before, like being on the balcony. The zone is a place where you’re not focused on the past and all the resentments, which often come with disputes. You’re not of what they did to you. You’re not worried so much about the future.
You’re in the present moment, which is the only place of power where you can change things for the better. Right.
Rita Liu:
And I guess that’s the past resentment and all that would be when you hit the wall.
William Ury:
That’s it. Absolutely.
Rita Liu:
The other one, which is very interesting, respect them even if. Even if what?
William Ury:
Even if. If you feel like killing them. Respect you.
I mean, that’s to me, you know, one of the things I’ve noticed about having been, you know, I have dealt with so many conflicts over the years, whether it’s in business or in family or in politics. But the usual pattern is the other side rejects you. You reject them. They disrespect you. You disrespect them.
And, you know, you’re locked in that conflict forever. I just got back from the Middle East. Oh. And so, to me, the key is someone has to break that cycle. And that could be you.
If you can learn to respect. In other words, to respect means to give positive attention, treat the other person with respect. It’s probably the cheapest concession that you can make in a negotiation because the other side’s dignity means everything to them. And it costs you nothing to give a little bit of respect. And it actually gets you a lot.
And it allows you to change that cycle from disrespect to mutual respect.
Rita Liu:
Does it mean having to walk away sometimes?
William Ury:
Sometimes you do need to walk away, for sure. I wouldn’t walk away in anger. But you could walk away leaving the door open and saying, look, you know, it seems to me that the way we’re negotiating, we’re not getting anywhere at this moment.
Why don’t we take a breather here and give me a call? Here’s my phone number. Here’s my email. Give me a call when you’re ready to negotiate.
Rita Liu:
Right.
And so sometimes, you know, we’re talking about deals that are worth a lot. And, you know, you don’t want to get to a stalemate because you do want to get to a conclusion. How do you go about walking away from that?
William Ury:
The thing is, in negotiation, you don’t generally walk away. Walking away to me is a last resort as a way of signaling to the other side that, yes, we do want an agreement, but the way we’ve been talking, we’re not getting there.
You’re taking a pause. You’re not necessarily breaking off the relationship. But there’s room for all of that in a negotiation. It depends on your situation. What you’re looking for, the objective is, you’re looking for a solution that can satisfy your interests but also address the interests of the other side.
It’s those mutually beneficial agreements that are the best of all. Those are what you’re looking for.
Rita Liu:
So it’s a time out of sorts. And we’ll come back to this when we’re a bit more level-headed.
William Ury:
Right.
It might be time out on the balcony.
Rita Liu:
OK, at the balcony. The last one, from win-lose to win-win-win. Who’s the extra win? What’s the extra win?
William Ury:
The extra win is if it’s a family feud, the whole family. If it’s in the workplace, it’s the organization. If it’s in the community, it’s the whole community or maybe the world. But it’s basically the larger community. And so that ideally we’re looking to reach agreements that benefit not just us and the other side but benefit the larger whole.
That’s the ultimate goal. I mean, it’s not always easy. That’s why negotiation is some of the most difficult work that anyone ever has to do, particularly in the case of disputes or in the case of very difficult agreements to reach. But the goals ought to be clear that I find it much more effective to go into negotiation looking for mutual benefit. And those are the most successful business leaders.
Those are the most successful family leaders. Those are the most successful political leaders.
Rita Liu:
All right. You’ve written these couple of books, Getting Yes and Getting Past No, and then finally getting to yes with yourself. What was the transition?
What was the storyline that led to this book?
William Ury:
The storyline that led to this book is basically I’m always looking for what’s the obstacle? What’s preventing us from getting to yes? Because I see so many potential deals, so many potential agreements that we fail to reach. What’s the biggest obstacle?
For years I worked on the other side. They’re emotional. They’re egotistical. They’re intractable. It’s just too complicated.
There’s a stone wall there. But then I realized that in fact that’s only half of it because the greater half of what makes it really difficult for us to get to yes is our own self, our own tendency to react, to sabotage ourselves. As Ambrose Pierce once put it, when angry you will make the best speech you will ever regret. And that happens more often than not.
Rita Liu:
A good reminder for today for me.
Thanks. It’s been a pleasure speaking to you. I will speak to William Ury talking about his book, Getting to Yes with Yourself. This is Raise Your Game, BFM 89.9.