As a freelancer or small business owner, you’ll find yourself negotiating with bigger fish, which could make you feel powerless. It’s a frustrating place to be because sometimes you find yourself giving away too much. This leaves you feeling short-changed and it’s just an unpleasant feeling all around. Well, you’re in luck. Keep listening because you’re about to meet William Ury, one of the world’s leading experts in negotiation and mediation and co-author of Getting to Yes, Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In, the world’s best-selling book on negotiation. So stay tuned. Hey, welcome back to the show. I’m Anise Kizilbash, your host. Thanks for listening. And welcome back if you’re a regular, if you’re new. Our mission is to give freelancers, self-employed and entrepreneurs nuggets of advice, wisdoms and strategies to grow your sales in a mindful way in 30 minutes or less. So wherever you’re listening, on your morning commute, at the gym, running in the park or doing your dishes, thanks for tuning in. For this episode, I caught up with William Ury, co-author of Getting to Yes, Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In. Now for the past 35 years, William has served as a negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts ranging from the Kentucky Wildcat coal mining strikes to ethnic wars in the Middle East, the Balkans and the former Soviet Union. He has taught negotiation and mediation to tens and thousands of corporate executives, labour leaders, diplomats and military officers around the world. He’s helped hundreds of businesses and organizations reach mutually profitable agreements with customers, suppliers, unions and joint venture partners. And right now, my entrepreneurial friends, you will meet him. I picked his brains about how entrepreneurs can negotiate without giving in. So let’s head on over to the interview now. Hello, William. How are you? I’m very well. How are you? I’m very good. Thank you. Thank you. William, one of the things I, many things I loved about your book was, is the idea of principled negotiation. So can you just tell us what you mean about it by this? Yeah. So principled negotiation is a form of negotiation where you, instead of treating the problem as you have one position, the other side has another position and you bargain over those positions, treating each other almost as adversaries. It’s quite the contrary. You treat each other as potential partners. You say you’ve got a problem and you jointly try to solve that problem by looking behind people’s positions, which are the things they say they want, for what are their underlying interests, what are their underlying concerns, interest needs, fears, aspirations, so that you can arrive at a solution that meets both sides’ interests, a solution that is for mutual gain, a so-called win-win solution is what principled negotiation is all about. It’s looking for a fair, mutually satisfying resolution to your, to your either dispute or to the opportunity that you have for a new deal. And because you mentioned focusing on interests, not positions. So can you give an example of how one can reframe it from a position to an interest? Well, take a very simple example. Let’s imagine you have someone who works for you who comes into your office and they ask you for a raise. And imagine that there’s, you look in the budget, you know, and there’s no more money in the budget and you say no. So they’re asking for a raise, in other words, an increase. That’s a position. They’re saying, I want more money. You look in the budget and you come back and say, you know, sorry, but there’s no more money in the budget. That’s a position. What you could do is instead of, is ask the person, well, tell me why you want the raise. Help me understand what the, what the problem is. Well, I’ve got a health problem or I’ve got a elderly parent or I’ve got a child who needs to go to school or, you know, I think I deserve it. I think, you know, other people are being paid the same amount. In other words, you try to understand what are the underlying reasons, the motivations that is driving the person to look for that raise. And even though you might not be able to satisfy their position, in other words, give them the raise, you might be able to help them and say, well, you know, there’s a tuition program here. Maybe I can help you find a, you know, for your, for your child. Maybe you can, there’s, I can make, make a loan. Maybe we can give you a bonus that’s contingent upon, you know, bringing in more sales. Maybe we can, you know, give you a promotion or a new title, or maybe we can give you more flex time. In other words, you can start to brainstorm and you may find ways to satisfy their underlying interests. Even if, because the budget is tight, you’re not able to give them what they originally asked for, which was their position. Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned also the, the sources of these powers, so bouncing off what you just said. So the interests and you giving them options. So can you talk us through some of the other negotiating powers that people can have access to? For sure. Well, there’s, I think one of the greatest powers that we have, actually, is the power to master ourselves, because what I found is the biggest obstacle to us engaging in this kind of negotiation, when things are tough or tense, is actually not the difficult person on the other side of the table, it’s ourselves. And so for me, I like to use the metaphor of going to the balcony. It’s like, instead of reacting, instead of, as there’s an old saying that goes, when angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret. You, you, it’s almost like you imagine the negotiation taking place on a stage where you and the other parties are kind of players on that stage. Part of you goes to a mental or an emotional balcony, overlooking that stage, which is a place of calm, of clarity, of perspective, where you can keep your eyes on the prize. You can suspend your normal reaction of being a little bit anxious or being fearful or being angry or being irritated or whatever, whatever’s driving you in that moment, whatever emotions might be driving you in that moment, so that you can then focus on what is it that you really want? And what is the best way to achieve it? So there’s the balcony is maybe your greatest foundational power, that ability to go to the balcony, that ability to, to go to a place of clarity of self-control. If you are able to influence yourself, you’re going to have much more success being able to influence the other. Hmm, brilliant, because we talk a lot about mindfulness and so on. So it’s exactly, it’s a place of mindfulness. So you’re not reacting, you’re, you’re able to kind of to have that distance from your emotion. You’re able to observe, you’re able to observe, you’re able to, you even feel the emotion, it’s not about suppressing the emotion, it’s just about acting out of that emotion. Yeah, yeah, that’s powerful. And so you also talk about, well, you know, it’s about the people and the relationship as well, and objective criteria in terms of sources of negotiating power. So can you tell us a bit more about that? Yeah. Yeah. So let’s imagine you have gone to the balcony. Let’s imagine you’ve, you’ve put yourself in the other person’s shoes, understand what their interests are. Let’s imagine you have, let’s imagine you’ve brainstormed creative options. Maybe you’ve gone through that whole process with the person who asked you for the raise for a moment. You went to the balcony, you just, you went to the balcony, you, you tried to understand what their interests were, you started to invent solutions. But there’s, you know, you, there’s a point where you may, you know, you expand the pie, you don’t just divide up a fixed pie, you look for creative solutions. But there may be some point where, in fact, it is a question of money. You know, they need more money for some need, whenever you’re not able to kind of creatively find some alternative, then rather than engage in a contest of wills, which is what we often do, which is, I’m sorry, I can’t pay a penny more, I can’t accept anything less, where suddenly, what’s on the table there is no longer how do we solve this problem, but my will and your will. And the question is, who’s going to back down and you don’t want to back down for sure. And they don’t want to back down. And, you know, and it could lead to a breaking off of the relationship or to, you know, stretching out this negotiation over weeks and months as either side refuses to back down. Or you could say, can we resolve this in a way that’s not my will or your will, but in a way that’s fair by looking for objective criteria? How would a third party, you know, resolve this? What are fair and reasonable norms? Like, what are other, can we say, let’s look at how other people doing the same job are paid? What is the normal fair range? So that they don’t have to feel like they’re giving into your position. You don’t have to feel like you’re giving into their position. You’re both deferring to something that’s fair. Might be the market value for those particular services. It might be, well, let’s ask a third party who’s a specialist in determining what a certain service is worth. So that you defer to an objective criterion, which psychologically makes it a lot easier for people to accept because they’re deferring to something that’s fair. They’re not just giving in. No one likes to give in. Yeah. Makes them feel powerless. Yeah. And you also talk about when you’re negotiating with people more powerful. Now, obviously when you’re in your startup and freelancer, you’re often in that position and you’ve got this wonderful idea of the BATNA. Can you please tell us what that’s about and how it can help? Sure. Yeah. The question is where does power come from in negotiation? There’s a lot of power. There’s a power in going to the balcony. There’s a power in empathy and understanding the other side’s interests. There’s power of innovation and creativity and coming up with creative options. But perhaps the most fundamental form of negotiation power is the power of what we call a good BATNA. And BATNA is an acronym standing for best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And what it just means is what’s your walkaway alternative? What are you going to do if for some reason you are not able to reach agreement with the other side at that moment? What’s your best course of action for satisfying, for addressing your core interests, your needs? For example, take the person asking for the raise. If you cannot reach agreement, are you going to look for another job? That may be your BATNA. Or if you’re the employer, are you going to look for another employee? At least to have in notion, what are you going to do that’s independent of the will of the other side so that you can either get the job done, so that you can get your core needs satisfied? The purpose of going through that exercise is not to walk away. It’s simply to give you the confidence that no matter how this negotiation goes, you will be okay. You have a way to satisfy your interests. And the paradox is in negotiation is that you want to, of course, you care about things. But if you care too much about reaching an agreement with the other side, if you’re totally dependent on that person, on that situation, you lose your power. So having a BATNA as an exercise actually paradoxically makes it easier to reach an agreement. Even from a mindset perspective, I do remember when I used to go around and interview when I was in my job and I would interview for other jobs, I would do that just to feel powerful when I was in an interview, even in other interviews as well, to take the stress off and take the pressure off. So I guess it’s the same sort of thing. That’s it. That’s exactly it. Because you’re going to negotiate more effectively if you’re not feeling huge pressure. It’s like any kind of thing. So what BATNA is, is it’s a sense of freedom. It’s a sense of confidence. It’s okay. Okay, I’ll go in there. I’ll do my best. I’ll try to reach the best possible agreement to satisfy my interest and your interest. And if for some reason I’m not able to, I have an alternative. Then you’re going to relax and you’re going to negotiate at your best. One thing I also liked you talked about was, yes, negotiation is about people, but you say to face the problem and not the people. So can you expand what you mean by that, please? Yeah, so much in negotiation. We’re not negotiating with computers, at least not yet. That will actually happen to maybe artificial intelligence, but we’re negotiating with human beings who have emotions, who have very different perceptions, who have different forms of styles of communication, may come from different cultures. There’s all these rich people elements. And sometimes what happens is, I think we make kind of two classic mistakes in negotiation is, sometimes because the person is so important, the relationship, the client is so important, in order that we want to be soft on the people. And as a result, we’re soft on the problem. We give them everything that they need, but then we don’t get what we need. We give them everything that they need. The client’s always right, and so on. Or we make the opposite mistake, which is, there’s a hard problem that needs to be solved. It’s absolutely hard. And in being hard on the problem, we’re hard on the people. We don’t really take their emotions into account and how they see things. We’re not as respectful as we can be. So to me, if you observe the behavior of successful negotiators, you find that it’s almost like they draw a line in their heads between the people, on the one hand, in other words, the emotional relational aspect of the negotiation, and the problem on the other, the substance, the money, the terms and conditions. And so that simultaneously, they distinguish, they separate the people from the problem, so that simultaneously, they can be soft in dealing with the people. In other words, respectful, empathetic, and so on, while they remain hard in dealing with the problem, making sure that the problem gets solved. So the key is to be soft on the people, hard on the problem, to attack the problem together, rather than attacking each other as human beings. Because the key in negotiation, to me, the cheapest concession you can make in a negotiation is to treat the other human being with respect. It costs you nothing, and that means to listen to them. And those are all ways of being soft on the people. It costs us nothing, but it allows us then to be hard on the problem without the people, in other words, the emotional element getting in the way. A little bit like, you know, you come home from a hard day at work, your spouse has to, and you say, honey, the house is a mess. Well, you may think you’re focusing on the problem, but your spouse may not hear that that way. They may think, you know, you’re making a personal accusation. They say, you didn’t do what you said you’d do. You didn’t take the garbage out, whatever it is. And, you know, you get into a big argument, and the house doesn’t get any cleaner, plans for dinner are spoiled. The people get in the way of the problem. The key in negotiation is to separate that emotional element, the people element from the problem, and being soft in dealing with the people while you remain hard in dealing with the problem. And finally, what do you, what top tips do you have for people to prepare for negotiation? Apart from reading a book, obviously, this feels like three tips. Well, one thing I think that’s extremely useful is to prepare with someone else, prepare with a colleague, prepare with a friend, someone who can serve as your balcony, whom you can, you know, say, okay, well, maybe even someone with whom you can rehearse the negotiation. Because, you know, if you’re going to make an important speech, you will rehearse that speech, right? Well, some of the most important speeches that we make are in negotiations about matters that really, that we care about. Why not rehearse the negotiation with a friend and ask that friend to play the other side, or to play yourself while you play the other side. But either way, rehearse, simulate, run your strategy by a friend, say, okay, this is how I understand it. These are our interests. My interest is, the other side’s interest. They will often, they can serve as a kind of coach, a mentor, and it could even be done in 20 minutes, or it doesn’t have to be a big thing, or an hour, but it can help you prepare rather than thinking that you have to prepare all by yourself. That’s brilliant. Preparation and rehearsal. Brilliant. And, well, that’s, I don’t want to take up any more of your time, William. I promised 20 minutes, and we’re on the button. So, this has been an honour, and I’m so grateful for your time. And I can’t wait for people to hear this interview. Wonderful, Anis. It’s been a real pleasure, and I wish you much success in helping people. Thank you. In their sales, in their negotiations. Yeah. Thank you, and I wish you continued success. Thank you very much. Take care. Have a lovely evening. Hey, it’s Anis again. I just want to leave you with a final thought, and you might remember in the interview, William said, when you can influence yourself, you’re much more able to influence others. And William’s statement about the greatest power at your disposal is so empowering and reassuring that he said, the greatest power at your disposal during negotiating is the ability to master yourself. And his metaphor, going to the balcony, you know, it’s a metaphor for mindfulness, where going to the balcony, where you’re able to then watch what’s going on from a more of a detached, objective standpoint. Only then can you come up with more creative options, you know, that you’re not being dragged in emotionally too much with anger and all sorts of things where your ego is trying to dig its heels in. So, going to the balcony, and when you master yourself, you’re more able to influence others. So, if you want more, I highly recommend William’s book, Getting to Yes, Negotiating an Agreement Without Giving In by William Urey, U-R-Y. It’s a brilliant book with great practical advice. I’ve read it several times, and it’s a wonderful companion, an essential companion, I believe, for freelancers and entrepreneurs navigating growth as you take on new and bigger challenges. And if you’re listening on iTunes, please head on over to mindfulsalestraining.net for more interviews and subscribe to the free guide while you’re there. You’ll get lots of other bonuses too. And if you found value in this podcast, please share it with your colleagues, your tribes, Facebook groups, and help more freelancers, more self-employed entrepreneurs grow their business. A rising tide raises all boats. So, that’s all for now. Thanks for listening. This is Annie Skizzlebash, founder of Mindful Sales Training, helping you grow your sales mindfully.