William Ury:

Think of negotiation very broadly as the act of back-and-forth communication. You’re trying to reach agreement on some issue, however small. You have some interests you may have in common, like an ongoing relationship, and you have other interests which are in tension. And the question is, how do you reach agreement? And in that broad sense of the term, when I ask, you know, leaders of all kinds, entrepreneurs, managers, whatever, you know, you know, who do you negotiate with?

Then that broadens the term. Well, it starts with the family and it goes into, you know, everyone, coworkers, even negotiating with yourself. And I ask them how much time they spend. And usually it’s like 25, 50%, sometimes 90% of my time I spend. So in that larger sense of the term, we’re negotiating from the time we go to, we get up in the morning and go to bed at night.

Gene Hammett:

Welcome to Grow Think Tank. This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs of the fastest growing, privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hammett. I help leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth.

Are you ready to grow? Today, we’re going to talk about negotiation skills. I believe that every leader should have negotiation skills so that they can negotiate with their team members, with their partners, with customers, with anyone in their life. They should be able to do this well, which means you should be able to look at this as a skill. You should be able to dissect it into pieces and see where you need to improve and be able to focus on that so that you are good at negotiating.

Negotiation skills are a part of leadership. And our special guest today is William Urie. William is the author of Possible Also Getting to Yes, which sold millions of copies. And you want to make sure that you tune in today, because I think William and I are unpacking some elements of negotiation that isn’t talked about very often. And so these are meant to be some new elements of negotiation.

Being able to to really listen more deeply. You might be surprised by his answer. It is something that’s new to me. So I bring this to you today in a very special episode with William about negotiation skills for leaders. My name is Gene Hammett. I’m an executive coach.

We do leadership development, helping managers become leaders. And if we can help you in any way, move the needle for your business, then I’d love to get to know you. Now, one of the things you might be asking is, who is this person and who? How could he help me? Well, we offer a chance for you to kind of put your toe in the water, if you will.

And you can join the conversation if you go to CoreElevation.com forward slash virtual conversations. We offer this up to other clients of ours. People have been on the show before. People that have listened to these episodes, just like you’re listening today. And they’ve signed up and showed up to learn about certain aspects of leadership.

We do one per month. And if you’re interested in joining us, just go to CoreElevation.com forward slash virtual conversations and you can sign up for absolutely free today. Now, here’s the interview with William. William, how are you?

William Ury:

I’m very well, Gene.

It’s a pleasure to speak with you.

Gene Hammett:

Well, we’re going to have a great podcast today. We’re going to talk about your your newest book, which is all about negotiation. It’s called Possible. You also have other books.

Getting to Yes is what you’re probably most known for as an author. And tell us a little bit more about yourself just to fill in the gaps.

William Ury:

Well, I am by training. I’m an anthropologist, a student of human beings by profession. I’m a mediator, negotiator, advisor.

And my passion really is helping people get to yes, helping organizations to get to yes, particularly when things turn difficult.

Gene Hammett:

You know, when I think of negotiation, I think of like business deals. But I think you’re you’re looking at it in a more broader sense, not just about how we do business together with someone that might be new to us. When you talk about negotiation, how do you frame that in?

William Ury:

Yeah, I think of negotiation very broadly as the act of back and forth communication.

You’re trying to reach agreement on some issue, ever small. You have some interests you may have in common, like an ongoing relationship, and you have other interests which are intention. And the question is, how do you reach agreement? And in that broad sense of the term, when I ask, you know, leaders of all kinds, entrepreneurs, managers, whatever, you know, you know, who do you negotiate with? Then that broadens it well.

It starts with the family and it goes into, you know, everyone, co-workers, even negotiating with yourself. And I ask them how much time they spend. And usually it’s like twenty five, fifty percent, sometimes ninety percent of my time I spend. So in that larger sense of the term, we’re negotiating from the time we go to we get up in the morning, we go to bed at night.

Gene Hammett:

I like that context around that. What is it you feel like people think about negotiation that just isn’t true?

William Ury:

Well, one thing is people think of negotiation as sometimes they think of it as kind of a manipulation and they’re uncomfortable with it.

That’s why a lot of people don’t like to negotiate because it feels like you’re buying a used car or something like that. And, you know, ninety five percent of our negotiations are with people. It’s not a one shot deal like a used car. It’s it’s ongoing relationships. And it’s really the art of applying our creative potential, our joint problem solving to a common problem. So it’s not just we’re at opposite sides of a table glaring at each other across the table.

We’re face to face. We’re side by side facing a common problem and tackling the problem together. That’s to me, you know, the the higher ground of negotiation.

Gene Hammett:

What’s the biggest mistake that people make in negotiations like this?

William Ury:

The biggest mistake I find actually has nothing to do with the other side.

It has to do with ourselves. It’s our tendency, our very human, natural, understandable tendency to react. In other words, act without thinking, act out of fear, out of anger. And as the old saying goes, when you’re angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret. And that goes for the best email you will ever regret.

So that’s the biggest that’s the biggest obstacle, actually, is not the difficult person on the other side of the table. It’s me. It’s myself. It’s the person I look at in the mirror every morning.

Gene Hammett:

Well, that very much aligns with the book that I’m writing with my co-author, my wife. We haven’t formally titled it yet.

I know yours is Possible. But when angry, you could give the worst speech of your life. Say that again and then unpack that for us.

William Ury:

Yeah, when angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret. And we live in a highly reactive time.

We’re on our phones and media texts. Everything’s coming at us all the time. We get very reactive. And that’s that part of the brain that’s kind of just acts out of fear because we get tense in a negotiation, we get angry and we don’t act in ways that serve our best interest. We often act in ways that go exactly contrary to our best interest. And so I find that if you want to influence after influences is yourself.

Gene Hammett:

The whole concept of making us letting emotions take over isn’t something that we have to really explain, because I think we’ve all experienced this before. We’ve gotten triggered. We’ve gotten something. But in negotiations, how do you calm yourself down? How do you feel yourself getting off the tracks, if you will, of an emotional strength?

William Ury:

Well, I would say the metaphor I like to use is imagine that you’re negotiating, you’re having that difficult conversation on a stage and, you know, there’s the other person, there may be other people involved in whatever part of your mind needs to go to a mental and emotional balcony overlooking that stage.

Go to the balcony. The balcony is what is it? It’s a metaphor for a place of calm and perspective, a place where you can keep your eyes on the prize, a place where you can see the larger picture. Now, how do you go to the balcony in that moment? You know, everyone has their favorite techniques. Some people, it may be as simple as just taking a deep breath or two or three just to get oxygen in your brain.

It might be just pausing and using a little moment of silence. Often silence is key in negotiation. It might be taking a break. It might be going for a walk, you know, just out in nature. That’s what I love to do is go for walks because it just it puts me it relaxes my nervous system.

It you bring your best to the negotiation rather than your worst.

Gene Hammett:

Now, William mentioned this concept of the balcony. I learned a little bit differently inside my coach training that I want to share with you to see which one you able to pick up on. He talks about the balcony and I’m going to talk about observers. So when I was going and getting certified to be a coach more than 10 years ago, I chose to work with a company called Newfield Networks and part of their model was to look at the observer that you are more critically and more deeply and really assessing yourself from a new perspective is a way for growth. And when you’re able to do that, you’re able to see that the actions you take and the results you get can change.

If you are willing to change your perspective as an observer or how you show up inside that, how you perform those acts. And it really is an interesting way to do it. How it relates to the balcony is the fact that you you’re standing in the balcony observing yourself have this negotiation. Well, you want to be able to observe yourself, have any conversation if you want to improve it. And I do believe that that’s one skill that you’ve got to be able to do if you really want to improve some of the weaknesses you have and really improve even the strengths back to him.

I know when I’ve been thinking about my own work around tough conversations, it’s all about trying to make a plan for the other person. I would imagine in negotiations you’ve got to be able to plan out what how this negotiates going to negotiate is going to go. I don’t know how much detail you go into the book because I actually haven’t read your book. I know I’ve had you on here just because I trust in your work and I trust in in a lot of the resources to be able to say this would be a good conversation for your show. But when you think about the tough conversations, how how do you plan for those negotiations?

William Ury:

Very important planning, preparing. There is no substitute. You know, no matter how skilled you are as a negotiator, you put yourself at a big disadvantage if you don’t prepare. Preparation is time on the balcony. And once you settle your nervous system, once you’ve negotiated with yourself, you’ve gotten to yes with yourself in that sense, then, OK, how do you get to yes with the other side?

And I think you need to be asking not only what is it that I really want, because oftentimes we think we know what we want, but we don’t actually. And then to then put yourself in their shoes and think about what do they really want, what’s really driving them, what’s really concerning them. That’s the hard thing. But it’s but I’d say if there’s a single skill that we need to be effective in trying to influence someone, it’s the ability to put ourselves in their shoes. Understand it’s that empathy, the ability to understand.

Because when you’re negotiating, you’re trying to change someone’s mind. How can you change someone’s mind if you don’t know where their mind is?

Gene Hammett:

Now, William’s speaking my language because he’s talking about putting yourself in their shoes and he talks about being empathetic. Well, when I think about tough conversations, you’ve definitely got to be empathetic. In fact, it’s such a critical part of this. The ten letters and empathetic are the ten parts of our framework to help you through tough conversations.

So how important is understanding and putting yourself in the shoes of others? I think it’s critically important, not only negotiation, but also tough conversations. And as a leader, you want to be able to do this effectively without going too far. But being able to do it and have a conversation from that new perspective will help you communicate better with the other person, whether negotiating or it’s a tough conversation or constructive feedback. Back to William.

I’m glad that you say that because I wasn’t familiar with the work that you have. But I feel like, you know, our books are not the same like negotiation and tough conversations or not the same. But there are a lot of similarities in that you’re going into this conversation with another person and it’s likely to trigger them in some ways because you’re asking for something, you know, they’re asking for something else. When you are finding yourself and things are going badly in the midst of that negotiation, what’s the best thing that you can do?

William Ury:

Take a breather.

The best way to start is to stop. The best way to engage is to disengage first and really take just breathe. I mean, it could be just a few seconds. You know, you know, Thomas Jefferson used to say, you know, when angry, count to ten, if very angry, a hundred, you know, in the middle of the Constitutional Convention, when tempers were rising, you know, just slow down for a moment that, you know, one of the best advice in negotiation, if you want to go fast, go slow. Just go slow for a moment in a difficult situation.

Go to the balcony where you can then see you can plan ahead. It’s almost like a labyrinth. You’re trapped in this labyrinth. You’ve got to find a way through it. And so that’s why balcony precedes what I would call building them a golden bridge, which is what you need to do to try to your job is not to make it harder for them.

It’s to make it easier for them to make the decision you want them to make.

Gene Hammett:

There’s a very famous other person that talks about negotiation. They talk about never split the difference. Is this concept an alignment with what you see in negotiation?

William Ury:

It is in the sense that, you know, a classic, a classic example in Getting to Yes for the first book I co-authored with Roger Fisher so many years ago was two sisters quarreling about an orange, right?

They’re quarreling about the orange and they say, OK, they take the knife and they cut the orange in half, right? They split the difference as it were. One sister takes her half, peels it, eats the fruit. The other sister takes her half, throws away the fruit and uses half a peel for baking a cake. In other words, you end up with a half a peel for one and a half a fruit for the other, when if you had looked behind the positions, which are the things people say they want in negotiation, like money in terms, which in this case are the fruit for why, what are the underlying interests behind those positions, which in this case are cooking and and eating, making a cake and eating.

Then you might end up with a whole peel for one and a whole fruit for the other. That’s the idea. Don’t just split the pie, expand the pie before you divide it up.

Gene Hammett:

I like that concept. We’ve been talking about negotiation with William Urey and his book, Possible.

I’ve got to ask you, writing books is not easy to do, so why did you have to write this book, Possible?

William Ury:

That’s one of the best advice you can give to an author is never write a book unless it’s absolutely necessary for you because it’s a lot more work than you think. And what drove me to write this book was a conversation I was having with a friend of mine, an author, business author, well-known business author of good to great, Jim Collins. We were going for a mountain hike and he suddenly turned to me and he said, you know, he said, you’ve been wandering around the world for about 45 years working in some of the world’s toughest conflicts from labor strikes to boardroom battles, to civil wars, to the Middle East, the Cold War. He said, do you think you could sum up everything you’ve learned in a single sentence?

And I like challenges. So I thought about it and my next walk with him, I tried it out. And then he said, now go write the book. And that’s why I wrote the book is to see what can I offer right now in these very challenging times where we’re faced with increasing levels of conflict that’s polarizing us, is paralyzing us from doing solving the problems, how do we transform our conflicts from destructive fighting into constructive negotiation and dialogue?

Gene Hammett:

I’m going to throw you kind of a curveball question, not to throw you off track, but I’m just curious around this, writing a book means you have to wrestle with your thoughts of what’s true and not true.

And how do we communicate this to others that are reading it? What is it that you went into writing this book that you now think differently about in terms of negotiation? Has anything come to mind?

William Ury:

For sure. I think when I started off working in negotiation, I thought negotiation was mostly about influencing the other side.

You know, that was what it’s about. And writing this book and thinking about my lifetime of experience, I’ve realized that actually negotiation is as much about influencing yourself as it is about influencing the other side. You know, I often to me, one of the hallmarks of a good negotiator, someone who listens, you know, negotiation is far more about listening than it’s about talking, even though we call it talks. And, you know, there’s a reason why we’re given two ears and one mouth for a reason. It’s to listen twice as much as we talk. And what I found, it’s hard for people to listen in tough situations like the tough conversations you’re writing about.

And what I found is actually the secret to listening to others, oddly enough, is to listen to yourself first, because there’s so much stuff going on in your head. You can’t listen to the other unless you’ve cleared your head, you’ve cleared your mind, you’ve listened to your feelings, listened to your thoughts, calmed yourself. Then you’ve got space to take in the other side. Then you’ve got space to be empathetic. So Getting to Yes with Yourself precedes Getting to Yes with others.

Gene Hammett:

That’s a really insightful way to put it. I hadn’t thought about it that way, but I think you’re absolutely right. Your ability to listen to others starts with your ability to understand what you’re saying and looking at it from those different perspectives. If we go back to the balcony thing, the way I interpret that is you’re kind of observing yourself from a different perspective and you’re able to observe yourself in this natural way. That’s where it starts with listening and then it keeps going from there.

William Ury:

That’s exactly it, Gene.

And that ability to observe, to observe yourself. You know, I was in anthropology. Anthropology is the method of anthropology is called participant observation. So you simultaneously have to be a participant in another culture and be an observer. And that’s the same stance we need in negotiation in life is we’re participants and observers. And we go back and forth from the balcony to the stage, from the balcony to the stage, from the balcony to the stage.

And that effect of going back and forth is what allows us to be successful.

Gene Hammett:

I want to wrap us up with something. It’s probably a big question. So I’m going to ask you to challenge yourself to get it into a short format answer, which a lot of people are. We’re told to assess from body language what’s going on in negotiation.

And it could be something as simple as the way they have their hands, the way they they lean their body when you’re looking at the reading, the moment with another person, you’re looking at body language. What are you really looking for and trying to pick up on to improve your positioning in negotiation?

William Ury:

Oddly enough, I think the best way to read someone else’s body is to pay attention to your own. What is your own feeling? If someone’s lying to you, if you have a feeling someone’s lying to you, how do you feel it?

You don’t it’s not you don’t see it in them. You feel a little twinge in your gut. You feel an incongruence. So pay attention to your own emotions and sensations and use your own instrument actually to feel and to read the other so that you can then know how to approach them.

Gene Hammett:

William, well said today.

We’ve been talking about your newest book, Possible, so you can get that wherever books you buy your books. Thanks for being here.

William Ury:

Oh, it’s my pleasure, Gene.

Gene Hammett:

Wow. I love interviews like this. I love talking to authors who have really put in the work to hone their skill and really help others, and I love the answers that he shared today about how do you listen better and how do you really show up as a powerful negotiator as a leader?

Negotiation skills are a part of leadership. I really believe that you want to make sure that you are continuing to get better at these as you are meant to lead your team through the challenges that are ahead of you. You’re going to have to negotiate on strategies and whatnot to get people aligned, and today we’ll help you do that. When you think of growth and you think of leadership, think of growth in tech. As always, be encouraged. We’ll see you next time.