Welcome to Point of Relation with Thomas Hubel, a podcast that illuminates the path to collective healing at the intersection of science and mysticism. In his conversations with visionaries, innovators, artists, and healers, Thomas invites guests into a relational experience that allows inspiration and innovation to emerge. This is the Point of Relation. Our guest for today’s episode is William Ury. William Ury is one of the world’s leading experts on negotiation and mediation, co-founder of Harvard’s Program on Negotiation, and a best-selling author. Over the past 35 years, he has served as a negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts from ethnic wars in the Middle East, the Balkans, and former Soviet Union, and most recently, in Colombia. We hope you enjoy this conversation. William, welcome to our third conversation in this podcast today. Thank you for joining again, and a warm welcome. Thank you, Thomas. Always a pleasure. Yeah, last time we talked, you know, the first time we had our conversation, there was a war in Israel. Last time we scheduled the conversation, then there was a war in Ukraine. And so today, I want to continue a bit our conversation. Last time, you gave a very lovely overview over the composition of the current conflict and how it built up over many, many years. And one thing you said last time, I think that I would love to dive into deeper is the vicious cycle of humiliation, trauma, and then re-traumatization and other humiliation. And it goes on for thousands and thousands of years, as you know, as an anthropologist. So, how do we do it? How do we stop it? Well, let me just, we go to the balcony first. So, you know, you know, one thing that I’ve been thinking about since our last conversation, you know, you talked about the repetition, repetitive behavior that gets generated by trauma. And I can’t help but think about how Vladimir Putin was born in the wake of the siege of Leningrad, of St. Petersburg, where, you know, like hundreds of thousands, maybe a million people starved, including his brother died, his mother was tossed onto a pile of corpses. So he’s born right in the wake of that trauma. And then I think, now he’s, the Russian forces are besieging Kiev. You know, you know, it’s like you jump from the siege of Leningrad to the siege of Kiev. And Kiev, as a place, is the symbol, it’s like the Jerusalem, it’s like the capital, it’s like the the birthplace of Orthodox Christianity for Russians. So it’s like, you know, it’s like, what causes us to replicate and repeat, you know, the same patterns that are buried there. And, and for me, as far as I can understand, underneath all of it is, is a deep feelings of humiliation. The Russians have felt deep feelings of humiliation. Obviously, the Ukrainians have felt deep feelings of humiliation, their own traumas. And it’s like, and right now, Russia, the way, the way one responds to humiliation, often in a very unskillful, distorted way is, is through violence. That’s, you know, basically, from humiliation, comes the need to use force that somehow that that will, and, and force just creates more humiliation, and then brings counterforce. And, and somehow, the only way out that I can think of, is that is to meet force with power. And by power, I mean, the kind of power, if, if, if, if humiliation, or if force arises from humiliation, genuine power arises from humility. And the humility, and we’re seeing this right now in Ukraine, in Europe, around the world, in the calls that you have, you know, there’s a kind of power of unity of that’s emerging. I mean, even as we speak right now, you know, it’s interesting that, that the leaders of three European countries are in Kiev right now. They flew to Kiev right in the middle of the siege, the Prime Minister of Poland of the Czech Republic and of Slovenia. That’s, that’s, that’s power. That’s not force. That’s power that’s coming up. And that’s what I call the third side that’s showing up, that’s showing up to witness in a very real way. And it sends a message, it changes the field. And because, in the end, force can, you know, military force can accomplish certain things. But in the end, power, the genuine power, the latent power of us all, which is, in the end, spiritual power, is greater in the end. It’s like water and rock, you know, water roads, rock, you know, and so for me, as far as I, how do we break the cycle of humiliation by not adding to further humiliation, because right now, there’s a kind of a, there’s so much outrage in the West and in the world around what’s happening, that there’s a consensus, there’s a desire to humiliate Putin, humiliate Russia, but that all that will do is just keep the cycle going. And somehow, the way to break the cycle of humiliation is to step back and, and ask, where’s the way of power to counterforce, rather than the way of force to counterforce? What I love very much is, like, when you speak about the humility, because I think anyway, I think, like, humility is a great quality in life in general. But it’s humility is connected to the knowing that I need to bow to life in order to learn. And in a way, you said that, that in humility comes with me being a student of life, and not me being the one that knows how things are. And I think that’s a very powerful opening, I think. When it’s about when it’s about breaking the cycle of trauma, where breaking is the right word, but interested, right, you said, you said that there is humiliation. What I also see, like, because here’s my process, when I when I listened to you, when you started to speak about Putin’s past, immediately, it feels like the two of us dive into like a space that we open up of sensing. So when you said it, I felt you and I also tuned in with, like, we both started to feel Putin. Right. And I can’t do this when I when I when I make Putin the bad enemy, I can’t do it because I don’t feel anything. But if I allow myself to stay open in my own humility, then I can begin to feel. And just with the trauma that you described of Leningrad or St. Petersburg now, like there is humiliation, but I also think there’s a lot of fear that is so overwhelming that it becomes numbness and absence, like the incapacity to feel. So we, in a way, sacrifice our capacity to sense and feel, and we gain a kind of a level of protection. And, and so I think, yes, there’s humility. And I would also add, there is a lot of unfelt fear, because those circumstances are so scary, and existentially threatening, that I think when one result is like closing ourselves down into a functional mold. And then when you when you the way you started, I felt, wow, that’s also part of the remedy. And I think that’s also must be for you as a mediator, one of the key tools is to practice some sort of attunement to a situation in order to gain a deeper understanding. And if that’s so, so that’s my question. Now, if that’s so maybe you can speak a little bit about that, because that seems to be a core aspect of becoming the remedy. You know, just in myself, as I try and take in the situation as someone who’s engaged in trying to help the parties find a way out. You know, I can feel, you know, the, you know, the feelings, you know, the, you know, like, you can feel the shock, the suffering, the, you know, the pregnant women killed, just like all that’s produces, you know, I can feel the fear, the anger, but from a and from a balcony perspective, you can feel all those things include all those welcome them. And then also try it. It’s almost like, that’s why I like the balcony metaphors, you’re you’re, you go to a balcony, you’re not, you’re, you’re to connect, it’s not to, it’s not to disconnect, it’s to, it’s to connect, it’s to get a larger view. And then in the play, it’s almost like you, you zoom out for a moment from the, from the picture so that you can zoom back into all the different characters. And so who are the characters on the stage? You know, Putin is one, and sort of dive in. And the only way to understand Putin is from within Putin. You can’t, you can’t, it’s not like you can study, if you study Putin, like, like a scientist studies, a beetle, you have to know what it feels like to be a beetle. You know, it, there’s this inter subjectivity there, especially if you’re going to bring any influence to bear, because like to really ask the question, what is really going on here? Where is it getting stuck? And how do we get it unstuck? And that in no, you know, that empathetic, that use of what I would call strategic empathy, it’s empathy for a purpose. And the purpose is to find a way out to find a way to heal. And it doesn’t preclude justice, or, you know, human rights or anything like that. It’s, it’s like, if we’re trying in the play, people are stuck here, and they’re just going around in a circle. How can you write the play, so that maybe this person steps here, this person steps there, this person steps there, this person steps there, and they start to move in a more constructive direction. It’s interesting, because you’re, you’re also saying something, I love this, because I think we are right in becoming the remedy. Because the question was, how do we stop the vicious cycle? And, and I think the only way, and I really believe the only way is to open up the inability to feel, because for many people, in the moment you can create an enemy, you, you’re protecting yourself. So like, and then we talk about Russia, or like, but it’s not anymore that we are part and because many people think, oh, if I feel that I agree, or then I agree to what’s happening, or I become weak, or all these ideas that are born out of trauma. They are not born out of real sensing doesn’t make us weak at all the opposite. And I’m sure you, you experience this over and over again. But there is an assumption that I cannot feel somebody who does terrible things. And, and that sensing, I think that’s also what many in the mystical teachings, like many of the really trained masters, they weren’t weak at all, but they were really dialed in. So this, this quality is, I think, one of the core elements that enough people can hold a space. Because when I listened to you, so ever since I got to know you, what I really loved about your way of, of being in conflict is that you become a space that can host a conflict. Because if you need to externalize the conflict, and then try to mediate them between them, it’s never gonna work. And I would love to hear your take on this, because it only works if you become a space or the collective becomes a space that is bigger than the conflict, but it’s very clear with the conflict and within the conflict. So I would love to, maybe you can speak a bit about holding a conscious space for the fragmentation. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s it. You know, if, if, if I found anything in 45 years of wandering around different war zones, probably more than two dozen wars in the world over the last 45 years, you know, asking myself, what’s the secret to peace? The secret to peace is us. And it’s us doing the inner work that allows us to host the conflict within us, and then collectively, to host, to host it to create the spaciousness. And that’s, that’s the name, like, I give that the name, the third side, to me, it’s like, conflict is always like two sides, like right now, it’s Ukraine and Russia. And then the only question people are asking themselves is, which side do I take? Right? And I’ll take this. Well, there may be another option, which is to take the third side, which is not a neutral in the middle. The third side is the whole, it’s the whole, it’s what surrounds, it’s that spaciousness that you’re talking about. And the third side, to me, has at least three dimensions. It’s both the community, you know, it’s like the worldwide community is right now hosting, you know, watching, witnessing this conflict, witnessing it. And then we have to learn how to witness it collectively witness. And you and I’ve talked about that. There is the, that’s the external third side, there’s the internal third side, which are the people, like within Russia, and within Ukraine, or who are, who are, you know, those societies there, that can actually those internal third siders play an enormously important role in also creating space right now, there’s a conversation going on inside Russia, and a conversation going on inside Ukraine. And then there’s the inner third side, which is, you know, the spirit, you know, it’s the it’s the. And, you know, if I think of, for example, let me give you an example. In South Africa, you know, how did apartheid end? How did apart apartheid, everyone thought that that was going to go on for ever, you know, the conflict between the blacks and the whites, and the whites were had more power and whatever. It’s, I was in South Africa, when Mandela was in prison, just before he was released. And everyone was thinking it was gonna go on forever. And then I was there like five years later, and it was a completely different South Africa, what had happened here in that transformation, the third side got engaged, you know, the world was there, you know, that, you know, the different countries, there were, you remember, there were university groups, I mean, there were boycotts, there were sanctions, there was all the things that we see now today with, with Russia that was going on, the international community was energized. And the key was, within South Africa, there was a mobilization of the civil society of the business and labor and women’s groups and faith groups and leaders, they all got energized and created something called the National Peace Accord. And then there is a spirit of the third side, which in Africa was called Ubuntu. Ubuntu is the ancestral spirit and Ubuntu means, I am because you are, we are, that’s what Ubuntu means, it’s a spirit of we. And Mandela and Tutu invoke that they were not just leaders of one side. Mandela was very explicitly a leader for the whole. He made it really explicit all along that he wasn’t just fighting for the freedom of the blacks, he was fighting for the freedom of the whites too. And if you think about his leadership, when he went to prison, he was a very, he had a kind of, he was kind of a reactive personality, he was a boxer, you know, okay, we’ll get into a fight. When he went into prison, what he learned, as he writes in his memoir, is he learned to search his own inner processes, his own mental and emotional processes, he learned to study himself. And he realized that’s the beginning, that’s, you know, the balcony. And then what was the first thing he did? He started to learn the language of his enemies. He learned Afrikaans. And he learned their, not just their language, but their history, their culture, their history of humiliation and suffering, because they’ve been put in the very first camps that were called concentration camps by the British in the Boer War in the early 1900s. So he was able to, he was able to not react, go to the balcony, he was able then to put himself in the shoes of his enemies. Doesn’t mean he agrees with his enemies. But he was able to do that. And then when he got released from prison, he was able to speak to them in their own language, using their own history, using their own culture, speaking, you know, putting himself in there. And that’s how he was able to persuade them. And then with the spirit of Ubuntu, which allowed for forgiveness, to kind of persuade his own people to start to heal the wounds. And so there was the very first Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And so it’s all of those combined. He was able to, it was all those, all those aspects of the third side combined, created the spaciousness within which a phenomenon that we thought wouldn’t change, transformed itself. It wasn’t that the conflict got resolved. It’s this conflict transformed, which is more important. It changed its form. It continues to this day, there are tensions, but it fundamentally changed. And when I got back to South Africa in 1995, Mandela was, he’d been in prison for 27 years. He was out. He was the president of the country. And de Klerk, who’d been president when I was last there, was now deputy president. How did that happen? That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Yeah, but it’s another, you described it now as a process. It’s exactly what we said before. It’s like we need always someone or a group of people that can host the fragmentation, especially like in a hot conflict that’s happening now, like a war, like that when the fragmentation is so strong that most of the people join a camp. You know, either I’m on this side or I’m on that side. And I, you know, I’m on the sides of the good ones, which is understandable, but it’s not going to help the conflict. The conflict needs like a consciousness that can embrace it without agreeing to whatever, you know, anything yet. That’s not, that’s the second step is the action. The first step is the space. And you described it beautifully, but I think this is something that many people, I think, do not understand. There’s still much more emphasis on the outer action to fix something then on that space. So now, but now if I take that voice for a moment and I tell you, yes, well, William, all of this is great, but once there is a war, we need to protect the people. We need to take care of the women and the children that are suffering or the whatever the refugees, like we don’t, you know, we don’t have the time to sit now around the campfire and do some rituals. We need to act. And I would like you to, if you can respond to that voice, because that’s very predominant at the moment. Well, I absolutely agree with that voice. We do need to protect the third side. To me, what the third side does is the first thing it does is interrupt the fighting in order to initiate the talking and create the space for the talking and collaboration. So the third side is the collective voice that says, no, this is unacceptable. This shall not happen. This will not happen in order to say yes to an alternative process. So, you know, the you know, in the case of South Africa, for example, you know, there was a universal no from the world to this set this system of institutionalized racism. And there was a no emerging from the society and not just from the blacks, but from the whites, from the business community, from theologians, from religious leaders say, no, this cannot continue. So so there’s no question. It’s not the third side isn’t just all that’s to sit around the campfire and talk. You’ve actually got to, you know, protect. And the third side is what stops the conflict from happening. It’s like it plays the role of, you know, the intervening and saying, no. Now the question is, how do you intervene in a situation like like Ukraine? How do you do it? But there’s no question that the first role of the third side is to stop the violence, to stop it so that the talking can begin. So two things. So how do we do this practically now? Like if you what are great ideas to stop the fighting? Because as you said, it’s not so easy to just go in there and stop it, especially when nuclear weapons are pointing in all directions of the globe. The second thing is that I’m interested in is your take on what’s actually inhibiting that the entire world is getting up right now, because it could also be that not only Europe or the NATO states are on their toes, but actually the entire world would get up and say, no, we’re not doing this. So like, what’s the inhibition that because people and also people saying, you know, like, yeah, it’s great, because in Europe, it’s now a big thing. But in Yemen or in other places in Africa, there are wars all the time, and the whole world doesn’t care. So what is with this? Is this only an immune system, because it’s so close to us, or it’s a similar cultural background? Or what actually triggers that response? And why does the world not get up all the time when there is a war, no matter where it is, and how much maybe economic interest or political interest is in that area? Maybe you can speak a little bit to that. Yeah, it’s one of the questions, because, you know, there are wars going on right now, there’s wars going on in Yemen, in Ethiopia, in, you know, the Rohingya there. And we don’t even hear about them anymore in Congo, right? There’s so many, so much. And with the casualties, the human casualties and the suffering, arguably being at much greater levels, even the terrible, horrific things that are happening right now in Ukraine. And yet, right now, the world is glued, you know, and particularly the Western world, but I think the entire world is glued on Ukraine, it’s becoming a kind of a global tragedy. And to me, it actually, I understand and absolutely can sympathize with the thought that, hey, why aren’t you paying attention to these other places? Absolutely, we should pay attention to those other places too, with no question about it. That’s why I devote my time. And there’s something about this, it’s, I’m just even trying to understand it, I don’t know the answer to this question, but it almost feels to me like, like, if you put this in a larger perspective, and you look at COVID, the pandemic happened. And it was like, collectively, psychologically, for the collective human psyche, it was like, wow, the same phenomenon is happening in every part of the world. There wasn’t, there’s not one corner of the world. So it was like, even though it was a, it’s a, you know, it’s a tragedy, it’s negative, but it was like, it was, it’s like, suddenly the world stopped, and we were all feeling the same thing. Which to me was a really, and then, then there was a moment when it’s kind of like, there’s like, humanity, there’s like a play going on. And the play for the world that the world was looking at was COVID. And that was the main subject, you know, and the economic effects that, obviously, that, you know, people were dying, the hospitals, everything, everyone, the whole world stopped for a moment, and was watching the same play, in a way, because we’re each watching our own play. And then suddenly, the whole world’s watching the same play. And then it’s almost like, we’re there watching the same play of COVID. And then COVID, for most of the world, took a dive, suddenly, societies were starting to open up again. And then it’s almost like, like COVID was going off the stage. And then in came Russia and Ukraine, and they occupy the whole global stage again. And it’s like, there’s, there’s something happening here. There’s a global play going on. And I had friends in Brazil, who, you know, never follow wars, and just following this. And they were saying to me, come on, Putin, give us a break. We just did COVID. Don’t bring in another play of tragedy, you know. But, you know, they were even like, you know, a little humor on it. But it’s like, but there’s a reality that, that, that now, and maybe it’s a positive phenomenon, the world is getting increasingly conscious that of its interconnection. COVID made us conscious of interconnection. Someone gets sick in China, and then suddenly, someone gets sick in Copenhagen, and then someone gets sick in San Francisco, and then someone gets sick in Cape Town. And it’s like, it was kind of a very real experience of the interconnectedness. And now with Ukraine, it’s interconnected. Also, because this is not just a regional conflict. Suddenly, with, you have Russia and the West, you have the two largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons who are, you know, facing each other and confronting each other. And you have the possibility of, you have the highest risk of a nuclear war since October 1962, in the Cuban Missile Crisis, where that affects everyone. I mean, if nuclear weapons go off, it affects everyone. And even, it’s even short of that, the economic consequences of this war affecting everyone, the oil prices that people are using to fill their cars or whatever, it affects it in Liberia, it’s affecting in Brazil, it’s affecting in the United States. So everyone’s feeling it. And the question is, can we take advantage of this moment of universal attention to say, can this be a wake-up call for us to realize that anywhere in the world, anything happens, it’s our collective responsibility to witness it in the way that you talk about it. And then from that witnessing for skillful action to arise, collective action to arise, which is the power, that collective power, that in the end will be stronger than any force. Exactly. Exactly. And in the line of your events, and like, it’s in line with 20 or 30 years of time we have to develop a capacity or deal with maybe tens of millions or hundreds of millions of climate refugees in a way that we won’t be able to deal with if we don’t develop that capacity. So that’s one question also is, wow, these are all signs that we have to develop a systemic global capacity here, which I deeply believe is true. I mean, I resonate very much with what you’re saying. And on the other hand, also that we learn about the inhibition, what inhibits that kind of response. So both, we learn what supports it and what inhibits it. And on the other aspect, maybe you can speak to, I don’t know how much you include this in your own contemplation, but it’s interesting that COVID and now this war are happening in a time when there is a significant conscious or unconscious rise of collective existential fear. Because I think slowly, slowly it’s seeping in, like climate change and its magnitude is slowly seeping into the collective consciousness that before, you know, with some scientists were saying, okay, but now that we can start to feel the effects that are really happening already, I think that so that kind of level of threat that starts to be more obvious is, I think, also an underlying factor in this whole equation that you spoke about. Yeah. You know, it’s almost like, as you’re speaking, I’m almost imagining, you know, I’ve talked about the, you know, this image of the campfire, right? And to me, it’s not as if you have to convene the campfire, everyone is sitting around the campfire right now. And it’s just that a lot of us haven’t been paying attention. We’re there, you know, all the humanities around the campfire, but a lot of us haven’t been paying attention and we’re either numbed or just, you know, and now, you know, through these challenges like COVID or Ukraine and, you know, climate, we’re becoming sensitized, we’re tuning our collective instrument to, we’re waking up and we’re saying, oh, you know, and so to me that it’s an opportunity now to, you know, it’s like the fear is directing our attention to the fire in the middle there. And the question is, can that fire be a transformative force like fire is in which we can then say, so how do we, we can start to pay attention. We’re all paying attention now in a way that we weren’t paying attention. And now that we’re paying attention, is there, and this is what I think is so needed, is there a vision of where the world could go in a positive direction? Because right now, what our minds are filled with is a lot of negative visions, you know, like, okay, you know, climate, you know, extinction of all species, nuclear war, you know, pandemics, you know, great power rivalries. Now there’s cold war, you know, it’s cold war, it’s the end of an era. You know, we have all these negative images, which are possibilities, they’re genuine possibilities. The question is, where are the positive possibilities that can feel like, yeah, we could start to move in that direction. Can we wake up? Can we heal? Can humanity heal itself? Can that be the question? I mean, looking with straight eyes at all the suffering around the world and all the ways in which things are going negatively, can we, and this is what I, for me, like people ask me all the time, you know, are you a pessimist or an optimist after all this? And I, I’ve given up saying I’m a pessimist, I’m an optimist. Right now I say I’m a possibleist, you know, because a possibleist can see potential, can see possibility. You can see negative possibilities, because you’re not like, it’s not like, oh, everything could be great. No, you can see the negative ways we could develop all the negative potential, but you can also see the positive potential, and then you can act accordingly to see if you can transform, transform and heal the situation and move in the positive direction. Right. And, and that’s a great, that’s a great moment. So, because, like to first to have, like this, the inner space that’s needed to hold both is already based on a certain development, like that I can hold both levels of possibilities in myself. And still, because if I can hold both, there must be a greater holding space, because either I’m attached to hopefully it’s going to be good, or everything’s going to be bad, or I’m holding a space, but what is that space? What am I holding? So, that space seems to be a bigger awareness or consciousness than all the possibilities that might unfold in it. And that, that leads us to two things. I often say, like, there is a horizontal and a vertical flow of information. What does it mean? William informs Thomas, which means Thomas has a form of William inside. I have a William in my nervous system. That’s the one that I see. And you have a Thomas in your nervous system. That’s the Thomas that you see. And relation is there is the moment to moment update, you know, but we are updating each other. If we feel each other, we update each other. If we don’t feel each other, we start living in the past. So, when we update each other all the time, so then we are continuously fresh, like that’s a creative relation. And that’s what I experience with you often. So, when we are in this, so we are, you know, and then there’s the vertical information. That’s how we bring potentiality, at least according to the mystical perspective, the space allows us to bring information in that is not just informed by 2022. Like there’s a higher information that comes in as insights, deeper understanding, like new possibilities that open up that I didn’t see before. And I think that’s very interesting. And I would be, I’m curious how you experience this also in some of your mediation practice, that when you are dialed and related to what’s happening in the room, that there’s always a space for inspiration that comes in, that is new information that has the power to create the new form, a form that we don’t have yet, you know, and I would love to hear what you think about that. I, what you’re saying is very, sounds very, I resonate deeply with it because to me, one of the more powerful questions to ask in conflict or in life is like, what is wanting to happen here? It’s not like what will happen or what, you know, even like what shouldn’t happen or what should happen, but what’s wanting to happen here? What’s, if you’re watching the play, you know, and you are actually, you’re in the play is the same time as you’re watching the play. You know, I’m an anthropologist by training and, you know, anthropologists are participant observers. Well, we’re all participant observers, right? We’re all, life is, we’re participating. We’re all responsible and co-responsible for this human play that’s happening right now, including the tragedy right now in Ukraine. We’re co-responsible. It doesn’t mean we’re to blame, but we’re co-responsible. We can respond to it, right? We’re co-responsible and we’re also, if we can cultivate the ability to observe at the same time, which is go back and forth from balcony to stage, balcony to stage, balcony to stage. And from that perspective then, can we, you know, I mean, I mean, I love your information. I was like, you have my image in you. I have a Thomas in me. You have a William in you. And that ability to do that, to actually, you know, I have a Putin in me. I have a Zelensky in me. I have everyone in me, right? Exactly. So then the question is, okay, from that perspective now, what’s a way to dance here? What’s a way they can dance with each other in a way that opens up space instead of the way that we’re not dancing with each other, we’re fighting with each other, just closes down space, closes down the heart, closes down the, and compassion, empathy to me is the way to take these highly constricted situations and begin to slowly, slowly, slowly, they open up and then space and then new possibilities show up. And for me, you know, you’re saying, you know, where the information comes, right? It’s like, if you, if I put myself in alignment, you know, where does inspiration come from? It’s like, you know, you, you know, like you get ideas. I mean, I’m just reminded of an example, like, a year ago, not even a year ago, nine months ago, whatever I got, the president of Afghanistan was gonna meet with the president of the United States. This was, you know, when, before it was all gone. And I got a request to come to Washington to, to talk to the president of Afghanistan, before he would meet with the president of the United States. And I thought, I was trying to understand that situation at that moment, I was on a walk. I’m saying, what could he possibly say in this particular situation? The war, everything was collapsing, whatever. What was it that he could say? And it just, just, just arrived at me that, you know, he could ask for lots of things, but he could simply say, turn to the president, the president of Afghanistan could turn to the president of the United States and say, look, I’ve come here, all the way here from Afghanistan, just to ask you one question. And the one question is, can I go back to Afghanistan and say that you are, tell the people of Afghanistan that we have a friend in the White House? Just that. And, and, and because, because to change the nature of that situation, the dynamic of that situation was, can I go back and say, and, and, you know, it was just like, it just arrived at me. And then of course, that’s what I did. I went to Washington. And in fact, that’s what he did. And, and it changed the, you know, it didn’t change the whole dynamic, the whole play, but it changed the dynamic of that conversation from the beginning to say, you go in with your fixed positions now to say, can I go and say that you are our friend? And it just changed the dynamic. And that was something again, just information that arrives, it’s just like, how do you shift? How do you shift the dynamic of that situation? Exactly. Beautiful, beautiful. That’s exactly what I mean. And I think, like, so that’s very powerful that you gave like a real practical example from that, that you applied. And then one more thing I will add, and I’m curious, again, what, what are you thinking? So when Thomas looks at William, and I have a William inside. So I don’t know if the William that I see is the William that is out there. I only know what I perceive. But trauma creates cracks in the screen, like a computer screen, and you have a crack. So you see, I see you, but there is a crack. And so, so that’s one thing. So the trauma reduces our capacity to have to be informed by each other. And that creates distance, othering, distorted perceptions, fragmentation, whatever separation. The other thing is something that you said, that I wanted to come back to is, when that’s true between us, then everyone, whenever we think of President Putin, or Zelensky, or anybody, we have all of them. All of us have them inside. So what’s now the existence of a person? Is it the person in the body? Or is it the person in the body, and millions or billions of people in which that person exists as an energy field? Because in us, it’s just electromagnetic stuff happening in our brain. That’s perception. So we are like, there’s always a particle in the wave field, because we all exist in each other. So how can we work on this? Because that’s basically, that’s how I understand the third side. The third side is that we create that. And now, but the third side has the same fragmentation inside. So many millions of people in Europe still carry the wounds of the Second World War, that either our grandparents or our parents were part of inside. So it’s not that what we see is what’s really happening. It’s minus the trauma distortion that we all carry inside. And I think that’s a very interesting question around the collective information field. Because how much can we influence the one that we any public person inside? You know, because how do I allow myself to really create a relation? Because Mr. Putin is not just out there. He also lives in everybody inside. That’s really fascinating. So I would love to see what you think about this. Well, I like it. And, you know, it’s, you know, we can see the world in terms of particles, or we can see in terms of waves, right? And we know that both exist, right? You know, from physics, you know, it’s like, it’s wave and particle at the same time. So applying that to this kind of, you know, conflict, that kind of metaphor, at least, then, you know, what if, on the stage, it wasn’t like individuals like Mr. Putin, Mr. Zelensky, Mr. Biden, Mr. Xi, you know, all these people, Mr. Macron? No. What if it was a wave? And let’s imagine, what if you saw just like, there’s a field of humiliation and fear, dense field here. And the question was, how does it dissolve? How does it begin to dissolve? And into, you know, humility and trust, let’s say, you know, and, you know, how does humiliation become humility and trust and fear become trust? So it’s like, and we actually saw the task here is working on the energy field, which is, in some way, depersonalized. It’s not particles, it’s all waves, right? It’s just that. So there’s all this humiliation, humiliation that happened historically, humiliation, whatever it is. So how do we take this thick, dark, dense kind of mass and begin to, you know, begin to hold it in that spaciousness, right? So what we’re holding in the spaciousness is not people anymore. It’s this dark, dense feeling. And how do we transform that into, you know, like dark clouds become lighter clouds or whatever? It’s like, how do we do that? To me, that would be really, if we started from that perspective, then we might get to, okay, practically then, what does it mean in dealing in people as particles? But start with the wave conception. I think it would be really interesting. And, you know, the thing is, there’s so much insecurity right now. If you think, okay, there’s universal insecurity, the insecurity is being felt by Ukrainians, intensely, it’s being felt by Russians, it’s being felt by all Europeans, it’s being felt by everyone on earth. How do we take insecurity and move it towards a common sense of security, mutual security? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And the only way that I have seen so far, is we have to create a relation here that is strong enough to include the disrelated aspect of the past. And if we, because only when the present moment has the power to onboard the fragmented reality, which is postponed experience, which is tremendous pain, which is a Holocaust, the Second World War, First World War, Cold War, like, all this stuff is still, all the pain is still living amongst us. It’s not nobody cleared that space up, really, it’s still living. And I think if our relation is strong enough, then the fragmentation that might show up between us, we will be able to handle it, we have enough resources to handle it. And the other thing is also that what you said is, like, because I love it, because you as a possible list, you are living in the wave world, because in the in the wave field, there are possibilities, once they become manifest, they become a particle, they become matter, they become substance. So but it also means that if everyone, if millions of Europeans have Putin inside now, or Zelensky, or President Biden, or you, or whoever, then the wave field is determined by our state of consciousness, that determines the possibilities that we are able to bring forth together. And I think if we can overcome somehow this notion of separation that it’s happening there, and I’m here, I’m just reading my news, but they are doing this, to wow, my state of consciousness really matters, because that helps to raise the collective into a possibility that we can’t have here, we can only have here. And or the governments are an expression of the collective consciousness, we can have the government only that we are able to have because of who we are as millions of, I don’t know, US citizens or German citizens. So I think that interdependence that you spoke about at the beginning is so important that we are not separate entities, but that we are individual and collective at the same time. That’s it. That’s absolutely it. And the, you know, the this illusion, what I think Einstein called a very persistent illusion, that we’re these separate little entities alone, just, you know, and obviously, if you if, if it’s, if we’re just these little separate entities alone, then of course, everything is scarce from separation, you know, comes a feeling of scarcity. And then from separation and scarcity, you know, is going to come fighting, you know, because you’re going to fight. And the truth is, that’s, that’s, that’s one reality. And the question is, there’s another reality where actually, we’re separated, and we’re connected, we’re interconnected, we’re all in this web. And oddly enough, there’s abundance. You know, what’s abundant, one thing that’s abundant, is like, which is the key to moving from A to B here is respect, basic human respect for the other sides, for everyone’s dignity, dignity for everyone, respect, because respect, you know, Latin, respect, to see to actually see the human being there to actually see and feel the human being there to see their value. If I respect you, I don’t have less respect myself. Right? If I give you my food, I may have less food. But if I give you respect, I don’t have anything less. In fact, you give me back more respect. And then, you know, it’s just, it’s a total positive something. So to transform this insecurity, and humiliation into a sense of safety. If we can begin to respect which behaviorally, the best way I know is to listen, but to truly listen, you know, to listen, not from within your frame of reference. But as you were saying, from within the other person’s frame of reference, put yourself in their shoes, you know, really, from within, if we can listen that way, and we can, you know, hold positive intent, then slowly, slowly, slowly, collectively, we can witness from that perspective, then, then it can shift and we can create cycles of mutual respect, and mutual safety, because the truth is, none of us are going to be safe until all of us are safe. That’s right. And, and that what you’re saying to put myself into somebody else’s shoes, is work. And I need to want this, like, I need to invest something, because it’s not always easy. Because if it was that easy, you know, we weren’t talking now, like, like, we are, we wouldn’t talk now, because the, the, the, the, the part of me that has a hard time in, in listening, with such a quality to something that I maybe disagree or to, you know, a perspective that I don’t like, is work. It’s something that I need to invest energy into. And I need to be willing to feel that discomfort that comes with it. And it’s the hardest work that human beings do. And the little that I’ve learned from my own experiences, if I want to listen to you, I actually have to begin by listening to myself. And listening to, you know, creating a space of everything that’s going on inside of me. Once I listen to myself, there’s more spaciousness that I can actually receive you. Otherwise, I’m just so, you know, if I’m listening to you, but I’m, actually, I’m really not listening to you, I’m just paying attention, there’s this anger and fear and judgment and all these things that are going on. There’s no space to take it. So this is the hardest work we can do. But it begins, if I want to respect someone else, I have to begin by respecting myself. If I want to listen to someone else, I have to begin by listening to myself. It’s not just kind of like other focused, the work starts with self. And then it expands out when you realize that self and other is an illusion. And you keep on expanding your sense of self. So it includes the other. Thank you. Exactly. Yeah, that’s beautiful. Because I often say that wisdom is the capacity is the amount of world that you can include in your actions. You know, like how much of the world can you include in the way you live or move? So that’s beautiful what you said. Yes. So this is sounds amazing. I think we need another conversation. Because we didn’t get to the part that like the mystical and the spiritual part. And I see the time is already pretty advanced. But this was amazing. I think also like the the individual and the collective and the way field and the particle, I think that’s a lot for us to contemplate, like, because that is not just ideas that that is literally what the collective is composed out of. You know, like, we all hold, we all live in each other. And the more synchronized that form is like if William and everybody that knows you, if there’s a synchronization, then that’s a very powerful field inside and outside. And so I think what we what we spoke about today is fantastic. I am very excited about our conversation. And it’s always very inspiring, William. And I would love to continue if you have time. I know you’re busy whenever it is. Let’s bring in the mystical a bit more next time. Let’s do that, Thomas. Really, you know, I really, really enjoyed it. And it’s like, yeah, it’s it’s so much. I just want to say that to some listeners, this may seem like, wow, waves, particles, things like that. But all I can say is that in my experience, because I try to land all this in very practical actions, practical advice to leaders on what can be done now, you know, very practical. So to me, because things are so stuck, we have to go way out and we have to take in other perspectives and then zoom it right back into practically behaviorally. What can someone do tomorrow morning? And that and it works. It works. At least for my experience, it’s it’s maybe the only thing that can possibly get us unstuck from this. From this traumatic. Trauma based, you know, mess that is behind all these dangerous destruction that we see today. Exactly. And when I whenever I listen to you over like over time and I listen to you, I hear how important it is for you to take walks in nature, to, you know, to really go to the balcony and contemplate your mediation processes and the possibilities, as you shared with us before. And so, yes, on the one hand, it looks like going very far out, but we don’t want to repeat the past. And in order to bring in some future, like something new, we need to make a space for it. Otherwise, we are just reactive and just recreating the same thing. And and and a certain dehumiliate or humiliation that is happening and will just create the same thing in the future again. So what is like, you know, it looks like it solves the moment now, but it’s just the first cornerstone for the next catastrophe in 30, 50 years. So how can we do it differently that that it it brings in a new option? And I think for that, you know, when you take a walk, it’s not just taking a walk, it’s also making space for something new to arrive. And I think that’s very beautiful and important for the next practical step. Very much so. Walking in nature and there’s the beauty. To me, I’ve long noticed that because I work in war zones and war things, it’s very hard and tough and you take it in. And beauty is the bomb. Beauty is the antidote. Beauty somehow creates that spaciousness that allows me to integrate all these horrific happenings around the world. So maybe next time we should talk also about integration. That’s also an interesting word, a follow up. Great. Great, William. Thank you so much. It’s such a pleasure every time again. Thanks for listening to Point of Relation with Thomas Hubel. Stay connected by visiting our website, pointofrelationpodcast.com and by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a positive rating and review and share about us with your community on social media. Thank you. We appreciate your support.