Hi everyone. My guest today is master negotiator and conflict resolution expert, William Ury. He has taught about conflict. He has negotiated many conflicts between huge companies and even in war torn countries. And he is an expert in not only giving people the opportunity to resolve their conflicts, but very actionable tools that you and I right now today can use to resolve conflicts because that’s what we’re doing everywhere, right? We’re in relationships. Being in conflict is a part of life. And how do we resolve them? Whether it’s with a partner, someone we work with, a friend, a child, our family, whatever that is, William makes it really clear, really simple and very, very effective. His latest book is out right now and it’s called Possible and it’s how to survive and thrive during a time of conflict. So hope you enjoy my conversation with William Ury. Hi everyone. Welcome to The Gabby Reese Show. William, I have to say that when I read all your stuff and watched you, I thought only someone that kind of kind and peaceful is interested in negotiating. I think it’s a it seems like it would be the best personality to help people figure out how to are we saying the word compromise or are we saying the word negotiate? I don’t know. You know what I mean? Like if you get a high power alpha and they go, well, I’m not compromising. So tell me how you even got in this line of work. Well, it began when I was a boy and my family moved to Europe for a few years and I was young and it wasn’t that long after, you know, it was a different Europe than the Europe you go to today. It was still recovering from World War II. And I was like, is that, you know, there are still buildings and ruins and you can kind of feel the devastating impact of these two giant world wars. And then there was the expectation back in those days that there might be a third world war. And even the school had a little nuclear bomb shelter with, you know, big steel blast doors. And I just got to thinking, there’s got to be a better way than this, better way to deal with our differences and blowing the whole world to smithereens. So that idea got implanted early and then, you know, stayed with me. And so I decided really to devote my life to, you know, that one question, which is how can we deal with our differences at all levels? And I noticed that, you know, even family dinners, you know, family dinners, quarrels and stuff like that. So it’s everywhere from the macro to the micro. And I just thought there’s got to be better ways of dealing with it. And so that’s why I became an anthropologist. You know, I thought, okay, anthropology, that’s the study of human beings. We’re kind of a strange species. Why do we have this bent for self-destruction? And so I thought I’d understand that. But I really wanted to apply it to something very real. So that’s how I got into the field of negotiation was get my hands dirty and get into the thick of it and see what it’s all about. I feel like there’s universal principles when you talk about negotiating, right? Like, you know, you’ve discussed it and certainly in certain cultures, maybe there’s kind of different nuance and protocol, but there’s kind of these universal pillars of negotiating. And if it’s different for personal dynamics, because, you know, a lot of times I think when it comes to work, um, for, like, for me personally, I feel like there’s certain things I can lean into, like when they talk about leaning into and with my family, I actually find the opposite. I’m, I’m not leaning in. I’m, I’m kind of holding space and, and actually almost leaning back. I don’t know. And because I’m not objective and maybe ultimately there’s a lot more on the line with our family and it’s true, you know, and it’s intangible where maybe when you’re negotiating in a business environment, like you have, and you’ve helped people resolve things, there’s sort of some very specific marks that you’re hitting and it’s really tangible. And, and, and even there, I know you encourage people to, to take different positions, but maybe you could just share cause you have so much experience. What are some of the universal kind of principles when you are trying to enter into a negotiation with a person, whether it’s personally or in business? Well, the first thing I find actually has nothing to do with the other person is to do with ourselves. And you just were alluding to it. I find the same thing. I could be dealing with big world negotiations and I come home and you know, the stakes feel more personal. And so I find that actually, interestingly enough, the biggest obstacle to me getting what I want within a negotiation is not the difficult person that I’m dealing with, you know, be it personal or professional or whatever. It’s actually right here. It’s me. It’s, it’s the person I look at in the mirror every morning. It’s, it’s our own human, very human, very natural, very understandable tendency to react, which is to act out of fear, act out of anger, which gets triggered often when we get into conflict. And as the old saying goes, when you’re angry, you’ll make the best speech you will ever regret. You know, you’ll send the best email you’ll ever regret. And and so we’re, we’re our own biggest obstacle. It’s turns out negotiations an inside job and we’re our own instrument, you know? And so the first thing I would say is, I like to use this metaphor of like, what I see successful negotiators doing is they go to the balcony. It’s almost like you, you sort of, it’s sort of like you’re negotiating on a stage with other people and so on. And then part of you goes to a mental and emotional balcony where you can kind of like see that you can keep your eyes on the prize. What’s really important here. I mean, you know, you know, as they say in marriage, you know, you can be right or you can be happy, but you can’t be both. And what’s really important here and and what’s the big picture. And that’s a place of calm. It’s a place of perspective. It’s a place we all know, right? So we all have our favorite ways of going to the balcony. One of mine is to go for a walk. What do you like to do to go to the balcony? You know, I by nature have a pretty analytical personality. Yeah. So I, I can do it. I can just kind of shift gears and just kind of walk, like watch what’s happening because I think we all have, and you talk a lot about this a lot where, you know, we have different reactions. Like you say, sometimes people retreat, sometimes they try to accommodate, like they have these different things. And I find that the minute I feel more aggressive emotionally, that that means I’m, I’m afraid. Right. I’ve learned. Yeah. I’ve learned to, it wouldn’t be that obvious. You think, oh, that’s, that’s being, you know, assertive or whatever. It’s not, it’s still connected to my fear. I just learned whether it’s the way I grew up or through sports or whatever. It’s like, oh, I’m, this is making me uncomfortable. I’m going to go at it. And the minute that that, and I’m old enough now, obviously that it, it’s shown up enough that I go, oh, what’s going on. So there, it’s just to get that 30,000 foot view right away. I just go, all right, get out of yourself. You know, that, that internal balcony, I really appreciated that idea because it’s such a better place to start. It is the best place to start is to stop. And it’s, it’s like to disengage for just a moment because, and then you can actually, at least for me, I can kind of observe myself and like, oh, just like you’re saying, oh, that’s fear, you know, behind the feeling of aggressive is actually fear. There’s fear. Okay. And if you listen to the fear and you identify the fear, actually what happens is you start to relax a little bit because it’s, it’s seen, it’s like, you, you name the game, you name the inner game. And, and, and then you’re suddenly, you know, it’s important to have emotions and read your emotions. Your emotions give you really important intelligence, but what’s critical is not to be controlled by your emotions. You want to kind of be, you want to be able to watch them, listen to them, witness them, and then, you know, take whatever information they have to bring you about what’s upsetting you, what’s, what’s really going on for you. And then, then you can proceed to deal much more effectively with the other side. If we can influence ourselves, we’re going to be much better off in influencing the other. I think what you said though, about taking a walk it’s the number one. If you read multiple books about even getting ideas or creating space, it’s, it’s taking a walk. You know, walking, I’m an anthropologist, as I mentioned by training, walking is what made us human. I mean, we walked, I mean, you know, we’re only sedentary here for, for a little percentage of our time. I mean, basically, I mean, if you look, I mean, humans, 99% of our time, we evolved as walkers, you know, we even have large brains because we’ve got bipedal, we walked and stuff. And walking, you know, what’s interesting about walking too, is whoever fights why they walk, you know, no one ever fights why they walk, because if you’re walking with someone, you’re walking side by side, you know, you know, if I were close to someone as close to I am when I’m shoulder to shoulder with someone, you know, they’d feel physically uncomfortable, I’d be in their space, but shoulder to shoulder, side by side, we’re in the same space, and our eyes are looking out at the horizon, we can see the larger picture, we have that kind of that balcony, that prefrontal cortex kind of getting activated, and, and we get more creative. I mean, what I love to walk is because, and I walk every day, you know, I live near the mountains, I love to hike up the mountains. And, and I like to take my meetings walking, because they’re just so much more productive. And conversations when you walk, walk talks, those are those are great. Those are great. So you you talk about the balcony, and then you sort of, you have other principles and tools that you give to people. You know, I find it interesting that you started your books with kind of how to get to yes, and how to get to know positively. And you really landed though, on how to get to yes with yourself. So it feels like through your own work, you go, oh, wait a second, we still have to actually deal with the first part, which is us. So that felt like your learning curve. It is my learning curve. It’s exactly it. You know, I always write books about the things I want to learn. That’s the truth. You think you write books about the things you know, but you but for me, actually, I like, you know, it might take me five years, but I’d like to, I like to pick a subject that, okay, that’s my learning edge. And you’re absolutely right. What I learned is, wow, if you can’t get to yes with yourself, no wonder you’re having trouble getting to yes with others. You know, if you can’t, you know, like listening, which is, you know, one of the most fundamental skills, you know, that like anything is to be able to listen. Now, why don’t we listen? I think one of the main obstacles is we haven’t listened to ourselves. And because we haven’t listened to ourselves, you haven’t, you know, like you were just saying, when you go to the balcony, you listen to your fear, you listen to it, you’ve listened to it. And then you’ve got more space, more spaciousness, as you were saying, to be able to listen to the other. And so the key, the trick to listening is actually listen to yourself, and then create the space, then you can listen to the other. Yeah, that makes sense. It would be like if I was crying, a baby is crying. It’s like, how do I take any other information in until I feel kind of that space in that calmness and, and adults were so funny. We’re, I think we think that we have it figured out, or we, we, you know, because we mask it, it’s not there. But I think what you’re saying is important in, you know, in an everyday practice. These are everyday practices. And I mean, the good thing is we can get better at it, you know, we can get into the, like, what would it mean to be good into the negotiation Olympics, you know, it’s through continual improvement. And the good news is we get a chance to practice every day, we got conflicts, we got negotiate, I mean, how often do I mean, if you know, ask people, you know, who do you negotiate with, just if I really do define negotiation broadly, as you know, back and forth communication, you’re trying to reach agreement. And as well negotiate with my kids, negotiate with my spouse, and negotiate with my business partner, I negotiate with the customers, I negotiate with everyone, I negotiate with myself. And then I say, well, how much time do you think you spend negotiating in that broad sense of the term? And I know, what would you say? How much time do you think you spend communicating back and forth with someone close to you or whatever? What would you say? I mean, if you’re not including myself inside, I think I’m, oh, then that’s, it’s good yourself. It’s 90% of the day is, yeah. Why would I think that thought? Why would I have that reaction? Okay, I have three daughters. It’s like, okay, what does she really need? And why do I, why am I reluctant to give that to her? What, what does that really represent? And you, you, you have a daughter. So you understand what I find about daughter is named Gabby. Yeah. And she, she complained for a long time. I like that is, I, I realized that they really are the great teachers because they call me on the real thing I’m reacting to. They go, you’re saying no, because of this, not because of that. And I’m like, you are a hundred percent right. Right. So it’s my values clashing with their values. The perception, is that going to be perceived as bad parenting, whatever the million weird reasons are. So before we, we go to the second place, which I really appreciate the bridge. I just want to remind people that you, you remind people that just because it looks different, we all kind of respond. I said that I, I can sort of lean in and attack. You say people will avoid or accommodate. And, and none of these are actually the best strategies. That’s exactly right. We fall into what I call the three, a trap attack, avoid or accommodate. And sometimes we do all three, you know, we, we, we might we might accommodate and then we avoid for a while and then we’d lose it. And we go on the attack and then we go around like a little rat in a maze. And, and the question is, what’s the way out? And the way out I find is paradoxically, it’s to kind of lean into the situation with curiosity. I mean, when you talk about leaning in, you might be slightly detached, but you’re kind of like, like you’re curious about it. You bring curiosity and then you embrace it. I mean, conflict, we don’t think of conflict as something you should embrace, but yeah, kind of put your arms around it in some sense. And, and you don’t have to end it because it may be creative tension. I mean, conflict is something natural. It’s part of life. You don’t have to like stigmatize it, but just transform it, just change the form from, you know, we have a choice. We can either handle the conflict destructively, or we can handle it constructively and choose door, door number B. As somebody, because you do have a family, I just wonder, and they obviously know you have all these skills, because I have a lot of really smart friends that I’ve gotten guidance from people. And when they talk about this curiosity is in a way, I’m just curious, like in the most human level, how do we do that where it doesn’t also seem antagonizing? Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it’s, Hey, I’m engaged. Not like, Oh, this is fascinating. You know, it’s like, where’s the sweet spot for, I don’t want to react, but I, I, I care deeply I’m involved. I do need to take a little space so I can try to, you know, come from that place of going towards resolution, not towards, you know, I want to be right, or I want to win, or you need to be wrong. But in there’s a moment, right, where someone’s, they are looking at curiosity and I’m always, I’m always fascinated. Is there any kind of skill to doing that where it doesn’t seem like you’re being antagonistic? I think a lot of it, actually, a lot of negotiation boils down to respect. I mean, I always like to think, you know, respect is the cheapest concession you can make. And how can you respectfully be curious is the question. And, and, and, you know, curiosity is kind of noticing, and you might notice it’s not the right time for the person that’s, you know, I know, I, but, you know, our, our daughters are our biggest teachers. My daughter certainly is. And, and sometimes I realize I ask her questions and she could take it as an intrusion, right? Like it’s intrusive and, and I’m being curious, but, but so, yeah. So one is just notice, is she, if I can catch myself, does she want to be, have a question right now? And maybe is a question the best way to be curious? It might be just like you were doing right now. You were saying, you know, you were talking about yourself first. You say, well, you know, I’m feeling, and I’m a little this and I’m a little that. So, so you’re talking about your own feelings first. You’re not like asking about their feelings, you know, but, but, but you’re bringing it to a different level. And then, then you can kind of like, you know, and right now I’m feeling like, you know, I’d like to know a little more about you, but maybe this is not a good time or whatever it is. You just kind of like gently get yourself into the conversation. So curious that, I mean, there are kind of like, sometimes, you know, we have a tendency to go directly to the point, directly to the point. And negotiation’s a little bit like sailing. I don’t know if you sail, but sometimes you tack a little bit. You don’t go straight at the point. And I think that’s, I guess the reason I wanted to bring up this nuance is because I think we can be honest and genuinely intended, but still also the art of communication and rhythm. Like you said, if you’re dealing with somebody who’s highly upset or it’s a very sensitive issue, it’s like, Hey, I’m still being honest and I’m, and I still want to get to the solution, but I’m willing to just sort of, you know, move in the rhythm that also will work with them. It’s not dishonest is my point. That’s it. You want to kind of like, you know, match, you know, match someone you want to, it’s almost like, it’s like tuning in. You want to tune into where they are. And we all have actually this internal capability to tune into others. You know, we have these mirror neurons and so on. And just like our nervous system is that, you know, you can even just like tune into yourself. Am I stressed? Is there some part of, you know, just our bodies are exquisite instruments for listening actually to ourselves, but also to the other and saying, you know, I feel something funny is going on here. You know, there’s something going on, you know, I don’t know what it is. And that’s in fact, how you can pick up if someone’s lying to you. It’s not by just looking at their words or whatever. You get this funny feeling in your gut, like something’s off here. I’m not quite sure, but there’s something that doesn’t quite make sense or something incongruent. And so your body is an instrument. So you use your body to listen and tune in to where the other person is. If the other person’s feeling stressed, uncomfortable, anxious, fearful, you’re going to feel it too in your body. Yeah. I’ve learned through being in a long relationship with a very, very direct person um, who also can handle like really uncomfortable, like no problem. You can say I’m feeling this and it’s like, oh, okay. You know, and you’re like, really, you know, like that’s okay. I had to, I had, I have and have had so much to learn about communication because I was always, well, stoic because that was a lack of willing to be vulnerable, right? Like stoicism can slide over into, well, actually I’m not going to show you my cards. Right. Right. And I live with somebody who’s the opposite. It’s like, here’s, here’s everything. And, and, and with my daughters and what I’ve learned is even saying things like, um, I can see your point where maybe it’s a small little thing and they, they sort of say a truth that even might be uncomfortable instead of trying to defend it or whatever you go. I, I can see that. And it’s amazing how even just that small acknowledgement can really get you into the better rhythm of connecting and communicating. Um, and not being defensive. Um, yeah, that’s absolutely it. It’s like, go to the balcony and then find a way to step to the other person’s side. And what you’re doing when you say, just that little thing, you don’t even have to agree with them. Just saying, I see your point. You may not even agree with the point. Just, I see your point. Let’s them know that they’re seen. They’re heard. That’s respect. Really respect is, you know, comes from the Latin respect to see again, like spectacles and re, you know, to seek and actually see the human being who’s there. And, uh, so much of this is really boils down to something that is so it’s, you know, I say it’s the cheapest concession you can make in a negotiation. It costs you nothing, but it means everything to the other side to be seen, to be heard. You know, their dignity means everything to them. So, and that actually, when you say, I see your point, they feel seen and their system, their nervous system actually relaxes because they’re, they’re seeing, they don’t have to kind of be defensive because, Oh, you see their point. And you’re on, you’re on their side. You know, so much of negotiation is about, you know, we think, Oh, I’m on one side and we’re kind of in a tussle with the other. No step to their side and then put the problem, whatever it is on the other side of the table. And how do we jointly, you know, solve this problem and address it. Suddenly it’s very different. Uh, it’s that shift from face to face to side by side. And you talk about a bridge. Can we, can we, can we drill down a little bit about the other kind of two positions that you really emphasize in negotiating just as the same with balcony, you do the opposite of reacting, which is you go to the balcony. Same thing was with the bridge because our tendency, when we, when we get into conflict, we tend to think small, you know, we tend to like get small, we reduce everything to us versus them. It’s kind of a, almost like a win, lose battle who’s winning, you know, I’m feeling the defensive. And what often happens is people start to, they dig into their positions and they start pushing each other and it becomes like a contest of wills who’s stronger. And, and, uh, and you might get attacked, you might feel threatened or whatever it is. And it’s almost like your mind is right here. Their mind is way over there. And it’s like, there’s a giant chasm, like the grand Canyon between you, which is filled with doubt, anxiety, fear, anger, resentment, all the baggage from the past, whatever it is distrust. And, you know, our tendency is we’re over here, locked into our position. No, we’ve got to like, leave our position for a moment. It doesn’t mean the giving up just means leaving it for a moment, start the conversation from where they are. I see your point. You know, that was a good example. And then build them a bridge, a golden bridge, like the golden gate bridge, which I grew up near, you know, the golden bridge over that chasm. In other words, make it as easy as possible for them to move in the direction you want them to move. Because so often in conflict, we’re making, we think we’re making it, we want to make it harder for them. You actually want to make it easier for them, easier for them to make the decision we’d like them to make. Instead of pushing your tract, that’s the art of building a golden bridge. If someone’s listening to this, they think, okay, I’d be willing to do that in my friendships and my with a partner, with a child, because these are my personal relationships. Now, somebody’s listening to this in a business situation. I think so much of I think that’s real, more challenging for people. It’s like, wait a second, I’m trying to make it easy for that person over there who’s making it really difficult for me. And you deal with these, you know, extraordinarily successful people, alphas, you know, hard charging, corporate business owners, all you know, global, the whole nine yards. How do you because sometimes the smartest people and the more successful they are, it’s almost like, I would imagine it’s almost harder to get them to do it because what they’ve done so far works pretty well. So they’re like, you know, I know stuff like look at what I’ve built. How do you how do you get them? Where do you get them to go? Oh, wait, that makes sense to me. I have a friend who’s a hard charging business tycoon. A I mean, he was a boxer, champion boxer, racer, aggressive. I go get him. And that’s how he built his, you know, his business empire up from scratch, you know, from a little bakery to, you know, Brazil’s largest supermarket chain. And, and he’d gotten into a fight, a big fight with the largest shareholder, he was the chair of the company, and there’s a shareholder, and it was, and for them, fight wasn’t just a little ordinary fight. No, it’s like a dozen lawsuits. And, and, and, you know, character assassination in the press. And I mean, it was just driving the families crazy to had gone on for like two and a half years, and the daughter, his daughter, and his wife approached me and said, Could you help? You know, because he’s, he’s that type you’re just talking about. And so I said, I don’t know if I can help it. But I went to see him, not in his office. See, that’s one of the keys, not in his office, at his home. And he had little kids, he had a second family, his little kids running around his little son and daughter. And I asked him, so we’re at home, so he’s more comfortable. He’s not he’s outside, you know, not behind the big desk. I said, Abelio, what do you, you know, what do you what do you want? You know, that basic question, like, you’re curious, what do you what do you want? And like a good businessman, he gave me, you know, like six things he wanted, he wanted a whole bunch of stock, he wanted the elimination of the three or nine compete clause, he wanted the company headquarters, he wanted the company sports team, you know, it just had a whole list. And I said, I got that. And I said, but Abelio, tell me something. What do you really want? And he looked at me, do you mean? I said, yeah, what do you really want? You’re a man who seems to have everything. I mean, you’ve got a new family, you’ve got as much wealth as anyone could possibly want. You know, what do you want in your life? What is it you really want here? Because you’re involved in this big fight now for three years. Well, he looked at me for a long time, he was silent for a long time. And silence is golden, incidentally, it gives someone a chance to think. And finally, he said to me, in Portuguese, he said, liberdade, which in English means freedom, freedom, I want my freedom. And for him, I knew that had deep personal resonance, because 20 years earlier, he’d been leaving his apartment and been kidnapped by a group of criminals, and held in a coffin for a week. You know, this is a guy A type in control and thinking he was going to die. And only by a miracle was he kind of found by the police and released. But freedom really meant something. He felt, you know, like he was a hostage. And sometimes we feel hostage of these situations. And I said, so what does freedom mean to you? What do you want to do with your freedom? And he said, well, my family means everything to me. And he pointed to his kids, I said, freedom to be with my family and freedom to make the deals that I love to make. And at that moment, you know, when he said the way freedom, I heard it just like, again, in your body, just hear it, like, there’s a little tone, like a, you know, like a little sound, I knew I’d hit gold, you know, that’s really what it was about. It wasn’t about the money wasn’t about this and that everything that’s what it seemed to be about. And interestingly enough, you know, I was helping him, in effect, go to the balcony, you know, and really see what the prize was there. And, you know, within three months, and then in the end, it only took five days, once I knew it was freedom. Then, you know, this conflict, which was supposed to go on for seven years, everyone thought was absolutely impossible. We were able to resolve it. I sat down with a fellow who represented his partner in like five days, and we had both men signing an agreement, wishing each other well. And the most important thing was at the end of it, I asked Abelio, I said, Did you get what you want? And he said, You know, I got everything I wanted, he said, but the most important thing is I got my life back. And, and his wife said to me, you know, his little son who was only three, I think maybe three or four at the time said, Oh, Papi is not always on the phone. And it’s interesting how we really think, you know, we want so, so many other things than what we really want. And I’m just curious, when you’re dealing, let’s say you’re trying to help somebody, what comes to top of mind is the fact that the other gentleman also had somebody helping him get to the balcony, and the two of you could meet. So that’s like a kind of a great case scenario, even though, I mean, imagine, it’s even like your pride. And if you’re talking about even culturally, right, like a little more machismo culture, for sure. Yeah. Oh, well, they, I was humiliated, they disrespected me, like, you can really get over it. What, what happens when you have, let’s say the other gentleman was not compliant? You know, let’s say there’s people who no matter what, they’re not gonna, they’re not there yet. They’re just not gonna get your guy is there. And I’m just curious, because, yeah, well, that happens a lot. What, what is it? What do you? How do you help them when you’re in a situation where only really one person might be willing to take, build bridges and to go to balconies and to do all these things? Yeah, one isn’t. But because that’s the other thing, people get stuck, and they lose their freedom. It’s like any lawsuits. It’s a nightmare. People think, oh, and they say things like, it’s not fair. And it’s not right. And I’m like, correct, you want to get out of this as quickly as you can. So because people stand on that. Right, they do. They do. And they give up their lives for it. Yeah. So what do you have? Do you have a way that you reach somebody who you go, hey, this person, they’re, they’re ripe to kind of do it different. And the other side just clearly isn’t. How do you help them? Yeah, well, that seemed to be the case in this, in this case. And actually, if you talk to the other guy, he would have thought too, they both thought the other was absolutely impossible. I mean, this guy, my client, once he said to me, he said, you know, you’ve been dealing with, I don’t know, the Chechens and terrorists and stuff like that. That’s nothing compared to the guy you’re going to have to deal with. You know, that was his experience. And we often have that experience. And it certainly seemed that way to everyone that these two guys, you know, neither of them was going to back down because a lot of it actually had to do with neither of them. Once it was a fight, neither of them could afford to be seen to be backing down. You know, you talk about the macho thing, you know, it just, and so it wasn’t just freedom that he wanted. I realized it was dignity, you know, it’s like, and so we had to figure out a way to, in which no one could tell who won here. And in fact, both did actually well. And, but this was that kind of situation. And in fact, oftentimes it is those situations where you may want to get to yes, but the other side is extremely obdurate. And that’s why, I mean, I talk about the golden bridge is you got to figure out a way out. And it’s not about, you know, when you, when I said making it easier, you’re not making, you’re making it easier for the other side to make the decision you want them to make. It’s not about making it easier for them. It’s like making it easier for them to make the decision that you want them to make. So it’s like clearing the obstacles because oftentimes there’s a lot of obstacles like distrust, you know, why aren’t they, you know, ask yourself, why aren’t they, and again, you go to the balcony, you, you put yourself in the other side’s shoes for a moment. You know, even if it’s your bitter enemy, you want to put yourself in their shoes. You got to get closer to your enemies and your friends sometimes because you got to know them. How can you possibly change someone’s mind unless you know where their mind is right now? So you’ve got to like put yourself in their shoes and, and then think about why are they saying no? Why are they being difficult? What’s really behind it? What’s really going on there? You know, I mean, long ago, I remember reading about Steven Spielberg when he was a boy there in LA. He was like 13. There was a bully in his class. He was 15. He would just beat him up and made his life pure, absolute hell. And he would like run home from school, dive under bed, call out safe to himself. And then one day he thinks, how do I get this bully off my back? You know, how do you deal with a bully? So he goes up to the bully one day. He says, you know, I’m making these little home movies, even then he was making old movies and I’m making one about fighting the Nazis. And I was wondering if you’d care to play the war hero. Well, the bully laughs in his face, but a couple of days later, grudgingly, he comes back and says, okay. And so young Spielberg takes him, dresses him up in fatigues and backpack, the whole works and makes him the war hero in his movie. And guess what? Spielberg reported that bully became his best friend. His best friend in high school was his bully, beating him up for an entire year. And so the question that we have to ask ourselves when we’re dealing with these bullies in life is why does a bully bully? What’s the motivation? Why do you think a bully bullies? If you had to guess. For me, I, what comes to mind is there’s something happening at home that they’re bullied and they’re probably really, really afraid. And God forbid, maybe you seem like they saw your mom drop you off one day at school and you seem like you come, you get some love that, you know, so complex in so many ways. Yeah. And it often, you know, we think, you know, the aggression, as you were saying before, that aggression comes from a feeling of strength that actually comes from a feeling of insecurity, but bullies generally feel insecure and they want attention. They want recognition. They want a sense of control. So what did Spielberg, he looked in his repertoire. What can I do to give this guy a sense of attention to control, make him no hero in my war movie. And that’s how the bully shifted. And so that’s what we need to do is because we, their bullies aren’t just in high school, real life all the time. You have to kind of step back, go to the balcony and figure out what’s the motivation, what’s really going on there. And then see if there’s some basic human need there that you can find some way to address that can flip the situation. I mean, I’m not saying it’s always going to work. Incidentally, this is the hardest work you can do, but you’re always looking for possibilities, you know, instead of seeing obstacles, just obstacles and just saying, Oh, this is impossible. You know, just stay with it and be curious. And you might see little possibilities and one thing leads to another leads to another leads to another. And I’ll share, you know, personally, my husband and I’ve had different kind of frivolous lawsuits put against us, you know, for this or that. I had one maybe a few years back, six, six years back. And, and my lawyer called and was like, it’s a shakedown. Like, I don’t know what to tell you. Pretty much, you know, it was like, one of those kind of situations. Yeah. And hard. But my thought was, I really want to and I had been through enough things to learn my lesson on this. It was like, what is the quickest way back into my own freedom or my own life? And if it’s $1 that I can, I’ll survive. It’s uncomfortable, it won’t, it’s not going to be fun to get rid of this person, but the cost to stay in my freedom and not get entangled. And that, and that’s why I’m always very compassionate when people have divorces and especially things around children, you know, custody, because you can’t do that, right? Like you just, you can’t go, okay, here’s a check or you get it all and I’m out and I’ll start over. It’s like, you’re dealing with your kids or their safety, or maybe your part, the ex-partner is really out. They want revenge. But I do want to encourage people to your point. It’s okay to let people win in that frame of, yeah, yeah, you win. Because your time, your wellbeing, your peace of mind, even getting into a legal battle, it’s a nightmare. The court will be like, okay, cool. We’ll get back together in 16 weeks to have another meeting to then talk about what we’re going to do in five more months. It’s a nightmare. It’s like, get out of it as quickly as you can, if you can. And you might think it’s unfair. But one thing my husband taught me is he goes, you know, how’s that working for them? It’s like, we have to live by our code. People live by their code. They’ll answer to whatever choices and decisions they’re making. We don’t have to be judge and jury. It’s okay. Because people don’t realize how hard it can be on you. That’s true. That’s absolutely true. I think it was Voltaire who once said, I was ruined twice in my life. Once when I lost a lawsuit and once when I won a lawsuit. Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. That’s the importance of going to the balcony and really thinking what is really important to me in this situation. Sometimes you do need to stand your ground. Of course, you don’t want to attract other frivolous lawsuits and whatever. You need to balance it. At the same time, we waste so much time in the battle to be right. You know what they say, it’s like, what is truly important here? Life goes by in a flash. What is going to be really important? And you came to freedom. And it’s interesting, my friend who said freedom. I saw him at his 85th birthday party, about a little while ago. All he could talk about was in the last period of time, the last 10 years or whatever, he was free. That was the best years of his life. Now, he could have sacrificed it on that lawsuits and battle, or he could have the freedom that he wanted. And he could have had like a third wife in the next situation, right? This podcast is brought to you by Vionic. I personally have been wearing Vionic for a few months now because when they said, hey, we want to advertise, I needed to get a pair. I got the Georgie mule, loved it. I even got it for one of my daughters. 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And the second is negotiating with the other, negotiating with the other. And the third is the whole, you know, and what happens in negotiations and conflicts is we so often, we get thinking small and we, we, we, we reduce everything. There’s just two sides, you know, it’s us versus them. It’s the husband versus the wife. It’s a union versus management. It’s, I don’t know, you know, what, you know, one boring side against another. And what we forget is that in every situation, there’s never just two sides. There’s always a third side, which is the side of the whole, the surrounding whole. Could be the family, could be the workplace, could be the community, could be the country, could be the world, whatever it is. And there are people there who, who care, like in the case of my friend Abelio, you know, his wife and his daughter were kind of like, they were affected by it. Everyone’s affected by conflicts, you know, and they were third siders that said, Hey, and they asked me to come in, not just as a negotiator for him, but as a third side or someone who would take the side of the whole. And then I recruited person who represented the other and together that community, those people around who care, that caring community, we constitute a kind of container, like a circle within which like a, like a, you know, a pot of like, you cook something, you cook the conflict, you know, you cook the, you transform the conflict from its destructive form to a constructive form. You know, third siders can help calm the parties down, help them go to the balcony, help them build the bridge, help them listen, help them communicate, help them facilitate. It’s not just neutrals. It could be mediators. That’s a third side or two, but it’s often just a friend. It’s a colleague. It’s someone who can, who can help you. And I found that in a lot of tough conflicts, we think we got to do it all ourselves. And in fact, there’s a big resource around us, which is the people around us who are affected by the conflicts and have a, have an incentive in trying to help us find a way out. Yeah. And I feel like when they know you and they’re intimate with enough information, they can really be such a, such a great tool and so helpful. We all have blind spots, you know, we can, you know, we all have blind spots. So having a good friend, you know, who can serve as your balcony, you know, someone who can, you’re, we’re so engaged. We’re so identified. We get triggered. We’re, you know, we’re, we’re like all these emotions going, someone who can just help us to see the larger picture. Wait a minute. Is this how you want to spend your life? The rest of your life is battling this lawsuit or, or do you want to live your life? I can’t help, but think as a female, I often wonder for women in business, cause it’s obviously different, especially if let’s say you’re in leadership roles. If this is like a, a different nuanced thing for them to deal with. Cause a lot of times, I mean, I’m, I’m six three. So it’s a little easier for me just even having physical size where let’s say you’re a bad-ass woman, you grind it through the ranks. You’re the boss, you’re five to your one 20, and it’s still getting your brain around. It’s not giving up or giving in taking this attitude. It’s not a lack of strength. You won’t be taken less seriously. I think it’s, but I could see where it’s almost trickier if you’re in that position with the, you know, kind of that specific framework where you think, Oh, great. Now I’m here and I’m, you know, I’m, I’m having to give in. So I, I just want to highlight that because I could see where that environment makes it a little kind of more just complicated. It is no one likes to give in really. And, or very few people do, I would say, and I’m not suggesting giving in, I’m suggesting focusing on what you want. It’s not about getting mad. It’s not about getting even, it’s about getting what you want. And so in that situation to think about what is it that I want? And of course, you know, women leader in a, in a kind of male formed workplace, you know, they’re going to, you know, like, Oh, you know, if I give in, am I going to be sending a signal of weakness? And then other people will take advantage of me. You need to think about those things, of course. But the, what I find is that, you know, to be an effective negotiator means to try to advance your interests, get what you want. And, and if the, and also help the other side get what they want, because you’re going to be in a relationship with them, you know, a business relationship or personal relationship, whatever it is, but the you know, if you’re asking the question, you know, who’s winning, you know, if you’re asking the question, who’s winning this marriage, your marriage is some difficulty and, you know, and most of business is relationship. We’re interdependent, you know, it’s like, you know, we think it’s a win-lose contest, but the truth is that win-lose contests usually often lead to lose-lose, everybody loses in the end, maybe one side loses a little more than the other, but everybody loses and the community loses. And so, you know, the great challenge these days is to find, you know, in these difficult, really hard situations where there’s asymmetries of power, and there’s all these emotions floating around, where do we find the outcomes of relationships that allow us to both move forward, both address at least most of what we want, you know, our most basic interests, and then the surrounding organization, the team, the organization, the community, all benefit as well. Yeah, I just really appreciated and, you know, kind of wanted to make that deciphering point, you know, and you said something really, I think that’s so important, which is if we can transform our conflicts, that it’s a way that we can all contribute to transforming our world. And I think all of us want to contribute to making the world a better place, which it does feel very combative. And I just want to remind people, because even if we can do this practice within ourselves, we can do so much for our own community, and our little bit, you know, for the world. That’s it, Gabby. That’s absolutely it. I mean, the thing is, start at home. You know, if everyone starts to transform the conflicts that are immediately around them, it’s like a kind of expanding concentric circle, like throwing a pebble in a pond. It ripples out. And that’s what really makes the difference. So, no conflict is too small. And it’s like, it also, you transform your conflicts, you transform your life, and you transform the lives of people around you. Because the truth is, there’s probably no opportunity in the world, we can’t realize, there’s no problem we can’t solve. Whatever the problem is in the world, these problems are all made by human beings. They can be resolved by human beings, if we can work together. And the biggest obstacle in the way of us working together is this little thing called conflicts. So, if we can transform the conflicts, we can realize the opportunities that we want to realize in our lives. Well, that’s it, you know, because it feels like we’re moving in certain ways in the other direction. So, is that, you know, you’ve written so many books, you’ve taught at, you know, the highest level, you know, institutions, you’ve negotiated yourself, you’ve sort of covered this space. What inspired you? What was sitting on the table for you to still work on that you go, oh, I’m gonna do a book? Well, the book started actually with a hike, with a friend of mine, Jim Collins, who’s an author too of, you know, books like Good to Great. And he turned to me and he said, on the way up on the mountain, he said, you know, these are turbulent times, do you think you could sum up everything you’ve learned in one sentence? And he challenged me, he said, Darwin could, you know, in the origin of species, the theory of evolution in one sentence, and that we could be of use to us in these times. And so, I like challenges, and I like simplicity. So, I went away, and our next hike, I came up with a sentence, and I thought about it. And then he said, now go write the book. But the deeper thing is, I’m also, I just, you know, last year, I became a grandfather, and I have a new, there’s a baby in the family, his name is Diego. And on the day he was born, I had a chance to cradle him in my arms for an hour. And there’s just looking at this pure, innocent being full of potential. And I was asking myself, like, that generation, you know, of kids, like, 20 years from now, looking back at today, what would they wish we’d done? And I realized, you know, he’s my new boss, that generation is my new boss. And so, that’s why I wrote the book, was really, because I honestly believe, I’ve spent decades now wandering around in the world’s toughest conflicts, from South Africa, to the Cold War, to the Middle East, all over the Middle East, walking all over the Middle East. And I’ve yet to see a conflict that I didn’t think was possible to transform. And right now, we’ve got lots of conflicts here in our country, and in the world, and they get reflected at the family dinner table and in the workplace. And I honestly believe that if we take, I’m sure anyone listening to your show right now is a possibleist, because they wouldn’t otherwise be listening to you, because you’re so clearly a possibleist. And, you know, believing in human potential, it’s just a question of taking that human potential that we have as our innate birthright, our innate curiosity, our innate creativity, our innate collaboration, our innate relational skills, and applying it to these thorny disputes that kind of set us apart. And if we can do that, then we can fashion the world the way we want it to be. So, and, you know, the world that we want our children or our grandchildren to inherit. You talk about side-by-side versus face-to-face, and even that dynamic, how that’s so different. Now we’re dealing with screens and, you know, 15-second, 30-second clips, right? We’re not dealing with nuance or eyeballs or, you know, breathing patterns. We’re really in a very different dimension now with conflict. We’ve taken conflict into this sort of flat space, which it’s really hard to… Very hard. It’s really hard. Yeah. So in sort of addressing this as the person who has a little more experience, but now working for this younger generation and trying to, you know, leave something behind that maybe they can pick up and be useful and they can continue, what was… How do you address that? How did you incorporate kind of where they’re also… Is it now not the town square or the dinner table or even, you know, now it’s global and it’s on a phone and it’s quick? It seems even like a much more dimensionally complicated way to have conflict. It is. If I was a Martian anthropologist right now looking down and trying to understand human beings, I would say, wow, you’ve come up with the most amazing technologies here that can really advance things. And you’re using it to… You’re using it for… You’re using it to sling arrows, insult each other or get addicted to it or whatever. You know, it’s like, like, you know, we have this enormous opportunities. These technologies, they’re tools. And I think we’re just learning. I mean, you know, everything like is fairly new. And right now we’ve got AI coming in. I know you’ve been talking about AI. And the question is, okay, how can we make these tools serve us rather than us serve them? That’s the real question. And for that, we have to go to the balcony. You know, we have to… It’s that same ability to kind of step back for a moment and say, you know, because we get trapped. And of course, I mean, the trouble with these technologies too is, you know, we’re on one side of the screen. On the other side of the screen are thousands of engineers who are trying to figure out ways to addict us so that we pay attention, we get engaged, we pay attention to the ads or whatever it is. And so it’s… We really need to reshape our technologies, the medium in which we communicate so that it actually can help us do things rather than bring us into fisticuffs. I think a lot of the increase in conflict right now in the world today that’s increasing is because of the way we’re communicating or not communicating, I should say, through social media. I think your original point why you probably ended up on getting to yes with yourself is, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine, we’re talking about how dopamine drives so much of us physiologically, right? And I said, you know, it’s interesting, if I contend with my ego, right, like, don’t waste my time. And you know, whatever weird thing I have, and I go, Oh, check that out. That’s your ego. Then it’s almost like when I get into that practice of going to the balcony and watching myself, I then somehow my dopamine, I can kind of also put at bay. You know, it’s like, right, seeing with your ego, like, Hey, I’m not going to react, I’m not going to get offended, I’m not going to show you how smart I am, I’m not going to be right. I think I could be wrong, that that has also been a helpful exercise in me managing this tool that we’re talking about, reacting, responding, because again, it’s just another opportunity to observe ourselves. That’s it. When you wrote, when you wrote this book, though, did something show up because you are contending with this dynamic that was so really different? Or is it really, it’s the same principles. But now we’re just practicing them also on different mediums. That’s I think that it’s, it’s that. And I just want to say, a little humility goes a long way. You know, you know, to be able to look at your own ego requires just a little bit of humility there, which you know, in this world, I mean, you know, in dealing with conflicts, I like the word, I like the phrase humble audacity, you know, you want to be audacious, of course, in taking on big problems, but you’ve got to, you’ve got to balance the audacity with as much humility. And humility is allows us to both recognize our own egos, right? And recognize, oh, wow, that’s not necessarily in my interest, the way that that’s going. But humility also allows us then to listen to the other and take in where the other is. And humility is maybe, maybe we’re not always right. Maybe, maybe the other side, we have different perspectives, we have different ways of seeing things. So humility goes a long ways there. And, and I do think the these principles, which are human principles, I mean, right now, we’re in the we’re in this emerging age of AI, we’re just speaking as my Martian anthropologist for a moment, everything is is changing and about to change big time. It’s gonna it’s affecting everything, but it’s gonna affect even what it means to be human. Because pretty soon, you know, I mean, I just really, you know, a lot of people are linking all kinds of I was talking to a friend of my daughter’s is like, Oh, yeah, I would put in one of those neural links in my brain and connect up with the internet. And, and so it’s gonna be it’s a different world. And what it means is, the more we have AI, the more we need to learn to be human to balance it out. You know, the more high tech we go, as a friend of mine used to like to say, the more high touch we have to be, you know, we have to balance it out. And the principles in the book of like going to the balcony, that’s profoundly human. It’s like, okay, mindfulness, watch yourself, self observation, self awareness, we’re going to need that even more. So going forward, because think, you know, you know, fasten your seatbelt, we’re in for a wild ride here, the ability, you know, success will come, you know, our kids, what are we teaching our kids, you know, teaching the kids to observe themselves, and to be masters of themselves, to that self mastery is going to be the key. Because otherwise, you’ll just be addicted, you’ll just be totally at the effect of whatever new technological device comes up, comes up with. And so that’s the first victory. The first victory is a victory with yourself. And then that allows you to then think about a victory with the other, which is the golden bridge, which is, you know, the art of reaching agreement. But in the end, we want a victory for the whole, you know, for the benefit of the whole, for the family, for the organization, for the team, for the community, for the world. And that’s where the third side comes in. So in a funny way, as an anthropologist studying kind of human beings, you know, we’re going to go through maybe the most rapid shift in human evolution in the next 10-20 years than we have in I don’t know, thousands or maybe tens of hundreds of thousands of years, as we try to figure out how to relate to this new technology, but it requires us to be more human. That’s the thing. The more technology, the more human we have to be. So William, in sort of closing this out, I just have to ask because I’m always curious. You look very healthy to me. You have a lot of vitality. I always say there’s matte people and shiny people, and you’re very shiny. And yes, I get that you have certain practices that, you know, your spirit, you’re fluid. I think that practice, too, people don’t realize that. And you’ve said this a lot. Also, when you practice this a little bit, it does get easier. These are muscles that you flex. Sometimes you get that your gatekeeper gets a little stronger. You get that pause, things like that. But I am curious. I mean, you’re in a very natural environment right now. You’ve been made your physical practice and how you eat and all of those things. Is that also as conscious as kind of the way you move through the world and react? I try. I do. I mean, the foundation of any life is health, right? Without that. And so, you know, eating well in moderation, you know, I mean, the thing I do is I try to link whatever I want to be with what I what gives also gives natural human pleasure. And like, okay, food, so enjoy food, but enjoy moderation. But like walking, for example, which is my kind of, you know, I do some stretching and yoga and stuff like that. But it’s my walking. It’s not like I go out and say, Oh, I’m gonna be disciplined. I gotta go for a walk. It’s just an it’s like, I want to go for a walk because I go for a walk. It’s beauty. It’s a diet of beauty and wonder and, and it’s like creative ideas. And it’s a chance to just, you know, let go of stress. So, you know, I’ll walk two, three, four times a day, whatever, however long, but it’s, but it’s, it’s, it’s not something I just have to kind of like force myself to do. It just becomes an, it’s natural because it, it feeds mind, body, spirit and heart. And, and so you want to look for those things that are natural to you that just keep you that are things you want to do every day. Not just things you have to do. I mean, that that’s what I find. And the odd thing too, about because I, you know, I don’t really, you know, I don’t really like violence and stuff, but I spent a lot of time in war zones or I’ve spent a lot of time in, in, in places. The interesting thing I’ve found is that if there’s anything I worry about or I’m afraid about in the world, if I turn towards it, instead of resisting it, if I turn towards it and I move towards it, I get lighter. It’s a funny thing. I’ve, I’ve noticed this like, you know, I long time ago, I had a thought to create a long distance walking trail across the Middle East. And everyone thought that’s the craziest thing in the world. I mean, who’s going to walk in the Middle East and it’s all these things, but it’s interesting. And I’ve gone there many times to walk and it’s kind of an old trail. It retraces across like 10 different countries, the old path of, of Abraham and his family, you know, as you know, 4,000 years ago. And it’s as it’s remembered by people in the region. And, and it’s, you know, I told people it’s a hundred year project, but when you go there and you walk there, you think you might be going into a place of incredible danger, but when you’re walking there, people are so kind to you. They’re so hospitable to you. They’re so surprised to see you. And the stress that we have about imagining this as kind of a danger relaxes. So I found that actually, if you go into, if you move into what you fear, your fear turns out not to be exactly what you thought it was. And maybe that also keeps me younger. I don’t know. Something like that. Yeah. Well, our mind plays some really funny tricks on us daily. It does. It does. I mean, you know, what’s amazing to me, I watch my mind and it’s like, you know, I think it was Montaigne who said something like, like, you know, I’ve, I’ve had a, you know, you know, like life’s been full of, you know, like a million bad things, 99% of which never happened. You know, they’re all in your mind. When you, and I just curious, cause most people don’t get into these situations. Let’s say you’re, you’re, you’re into high stakes negotiation. I’m not talking about some rich guys who are, got their egos going. We’re talking about war and people’s lives and you, and you are going to, you know, sort of talk to the other side, let’s say. Do you have anything that you think that you’ve developed, even if it’s on a subconscious level that it, it isn’t, it has a neutralizing, I know we talked about that curiosity, but you, you’re going into a place that, you know, you’re representing the bad guys, whatever that means. Is there anything in your subconscious that you’ve developed or are you, is it sort of like, I’m just going to come as my full, whole honest self and maybe your humanity inside of you will, will feel that. Is there, is there some technique because these, then that’s the real high stakes situation and be scary. It is scary. And, and it’s the same, you know, it’s the same, I mean, these same universal principles, but what I find is well, I mean, I’ll just give you an example, maybe the best way to tell your story. Like I found myself, I was working on the Syrian civil war some years ago. And, and as part of it, I was interviewing people on all sides of the war and I was interviewing jihadists too, you know, people who were fighting and, and I was right on the board with my colleagues. I was right on the border of Turkey and Syria. And these guys were just coming, literally stepping across the border, a few miles across the border out of a battle, you know, where they’re leading a battle, like 2000 men in a battle to be interviewed, believe it or not, because they actually wanted their story out. And, and we would spend like three hours with each one take as long time. And, and this guy, this guy showed up who was, you know, had the beard. I mean, yeah, the absolute stereotype of an American of, you know, like bringing up images of 9 11 and everything. And so, so I could watch my mind that stereotype, but I thought, okay, let’s just, how do I, how do I, I’ll just show up and, and just be curious, you know? And so I, so instead of like asking him, what do you think about the Syrian, the situation? I said, tell me a little bit about yourself. This is all through translation, of course, I said, what were you, what were you doing when, how’d you get involved in the war here? What were you doing? And he said, well, and this guy who was like the, you know, leader commander of 2000 troops men said, well, I was in university. I said, okay, so what were you studying in university? He said, I was studying poetry. And I said, poetry? Yeah, I was like, you know, that’s what I said. And I said, he said, yeah, I was studying poetry. I was, I even won the national poetry prize. My uncle was a poet too. And, and I said, can I hear one of your poems? And he, he declaimed one of his poems. And, and then I, then I was just trying to think of what, I said, you know, imagine, I said, so how did you get involved? He said, well, he said, I got called in by the secret police and for one of the poems I’d written, which was taken as critical of the government. And I was tortured. I said, well, you’re tortured? And yeah, he said, I was tortured three times. And then he told me, you know, that, you know, he, he started off nonviolent or whatever, but then he saw his friends being shot down around him and he decided, okay, take up arms. And anyway, I asked him another question too, which is, I said, so what, you know, if you survive this, he says, I don’t know if I’m going to survive, but I said, what would you like to do with your life? What, what, what, what, you know, what, you know, get out some of his dreams. He said, well, I met this young woman in Egypt and, and I fell in love with her and, you know, we’d love to get married and have children, but he was just very humanizing, whatever it was, you know, the whole thing. And then I asked him, at the end, at the end of the CR interview, I said, is there any message you want us to bring back to people in the West? He said, yeah. He said, you know, when we show up on your TV screens and your, whatever your screens, you know, you just see numbers, this number of people killed, that number of people killed. Just remember that each woman, child, man here has a soul. Just tell them, we all have souls. So, like, I could see my preconceptions just drop, you know, and, and again, it was just bringing, bringing curiosity rather than just, you know, immediate stereotypes to the situation. And, and then he said something at the very end. He said, you know, let me tell you something. He said, other people have come to talk to us. He said, he said, but you’re the first ones who came and listened. That makes me weepy, William. Yeah, it’s touching. Just to listen. That’s the thing about this work, I can say is, you know, whether you’re working in your family or you’re working out in the world, it’s like, yeah, behind every conflict, especially every, these tough conflicts that we face that are really troublesome, you know, it’s, it’s human beings and they’re broken human beings or hurt human beings. And you get down to that level and, and, and that’s why, you know, we think, okay, well, no, that means that’s going to be very different from what we do in our families. I want to tell you, it’s, it’s not that different. It’s the same. And we all have these tools. I mean, it just, it’s not a question of like getting something new. It’s inside of us. It’s just a question of recognizing it, remembering it and honing and developing. And if we can do that, this is our birthright. And there’s nothing too difficult here. There’s nothing, however impossible it looks. It may take time. It’s hard work. It’s hard to do, but, and that, that’s where the hope lies for, for the, for our future. Yeah. And, you know, I, I often say to like, it isn’t about being perfect, right? Like just cause I can exercise these and practice them. I do have people like I will, I have one very close friend that’s actually Jen, who’s on here. And my husband, if I really had an initial thing that I really wanted to say or do, but I didn’t, cause I chose to go to the balcony. I will confess to one of them how I really, my initial feeling was cause it was, it’s almost like an offload. So I think that within it, we can honor ourselves all along. You know, it makes that easier too. Cause you feel like you’ve got to at least sort of say to some one person, you didn’t blow your head off, but you could be like, you know, this person sent me this email today and I, I wanted to say this. I didn’t. And, and so I think it’s also people realizing it’s not becoming a robot. It’s just making, you know, a different choice. Well, I, uh, is there any, in, in, in sort of wrapping this up, is there anything that, um, surprised you in writing this book that you thought, Oh, I now have a new, a new perspective go, or I’ve reframed something that I thought was one way. And now it’s, it’s sort of different. I would say the thing that keeps surprising me is, um, is how all this human potential is actually inside of us. And it, it doesn’t require experts. You don’t need an expert. I mean, even, you know, like the story you just told about telling a friend that’s person is a third sider. If you just look around these things, um, this is the gift of our ancestors to us. I mean, the reason why we’re still human beings is because, you know, we evolved, we’re naturally cooperative creatures. Of course we get into conflicts too, but we have this immense ability to cooperate and to communicate. If we just use it, it’s inside of us. It’s just about awakening a potential inside of us because sometimes, you know, people are like, Oh, you’re an expert. You’ve been this. No, forget the expertise. It’s inside of each one of us. These things are, they’re, they’re not easy, but they’re simple. They’re inside of us. And that’s, that’s, that’s really what just, I come back to is it. It’s every one of us can be a third sider. Every one of us can go to the balcony. Every one of us can build bridges. We can start right here right now because there’s no shortage of practice opportunities. And that’s the way bit by bit conflict by conflict, we can make the world the way we want it to be. And you know, not the, not the kind of these third party conflicts, but these silly day-to-day conflicts that we all experienced within our family. I I’m curious. Um, as my final question, Laird, my husband always says, if I’m looking for a fight, all I have to do is go outside my door. I feel like the more that we practice this, we actually run into less hassles. Like it’s this magical antenna that we are. Right. And, and I think that that is another interesting side component. Now there’s going to be things that are out of our control of course, but the other side of this is in the end, even if you want to make it about yourself, it does make your life so much easier. Um, because when you have these practices, I feel like you run into less hassles. That’s without question. Of course it just, I mean, you know, conflict is what the, you know, especially destructive conflict is what creates stress in our lives. It creates, I mean, it probably creates cancers. It creates, I mean, you know, it eats at us. Uh, and so our ability to just kind of like deal with these things constructively, don’t have to avoid them. You don’t have to suppress them. You just kind of engage with them, you know, and, uh, and bit by bit. Yeah. You’re going to make your life a lot easier and happier. And, uh, and you’re right. If you go out looking for a fight, you’re going to find a fight. If you go out radiating a little bit of inner peace and look at kind of like, you know, you know, seeing, seeing the, say, you know, connecting, tuning into other people where they are, you know, you’re going to, life’s going to be a lot easier. It’s, it’s, it’s all about, I mean, I know your, your, your husband’s a surfer. We’ve got to learn how to surf the waves that are out there. You know, there are a lot of waves. We can’t choose the waves anymore. So most so easily, there are a lot of waves coming away. There are storms, but we can surf, you know, and, you know, Laird surfs beautifully and we can learn to surf beautifully. We can learn to ride the waves and negotiating is a way of writing the waves of, of human emotion and human relationship. Well, I appreciate you and the work that you do because we can all use, not only the very concrete reminders, but the kind of encouragement that it is something that we can be in charge of. So thank you for, and I’m glad your, your, your friend gave you that challenge. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. No, I think it’s a good challenge for anyone. I would say is like, think about, you know, cause all of us have wisdom to pass on. See if you can just sum it up in one sentence, just as a kind of like to see if you can get it that simple. I recommend it. It’s not, that’s the hardest thing to do, right? Take big ideas and make them simple. It is. It is. Thanks William. It is. Well, great. Thank you, Gabby. It’s just a huge pleasure. And I really hope that your listeners can, can, you know, I’m sure they’re all possibleists and it’s just a question. I I’m absolutely positive that you can, we can you know, with that, these kinds of possible as we can, we can begin to, to to transform our, our lives and our world. So thank you very much for this opportunity. Thank you. Amen.